RRRush Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 My first post, I need the fellas help. I have Klipsh RF7, RC7, RS7 5 channel setup with the Denon 3805, will the 120W pushing the RF7/RC7 do damage to the speakers from too little power? Which amp would you recommend - B&K Ref. 2003(for front SS) 200x3 Sunfire Cinema Grand II 225 x 5 Would I blow out the RS7's with the Sunfire? I'm looking to make a purchase real soon, any help appreciated. This is a cool forum, I should have found it earlier. The setup will be primarily HT/SACD/DVDAudio. ( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholtl Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 120W certainly is not underpowering the RF7's due to their efficiency. You'll probably never come close to utilizing the full 120W of your receiver. Just like the similar post about amps "do I need an amplifier?" You don't NEED one, because your 3805 is more than up to the task of powering the towers. But you may WANT one...especially since the addition of an amp may make a world of difference to your ears. But then it all depends. It may not. 225W certainly won't blow out your speakers, since the RF7's are rated at 250W RMS, I believe (too lazy to check my own haha). My amp puts out 250 watts per channel, and even to my RF3's which are side surrounds and only 125 watts RMS. So unless I was trying to fill a stadium with sound, I have no fear of anything ever blowing out. So neither should you...unless of course...you are trying to fill a stadium with sound. And out of your shortlist, I would personally choose the B&K 2003. I've heard only good things about it, whereas I've heard both good and not so good about Bob Carver's stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 The first thing that you need to know is that too little power blows speakers faster that too much power. This is due to the phenonomenon known as clipping. When an amp reaches the level of maximum power and is called upon for more power, it clips. Clipping sends raw power to the speaker. Clipping usually blows tweeters first. Klipsch speakers usually need less than one watt of power to play loudly due to their high sensitivity. The first watt needs to be very clean which is something that many amps have a hard time doing. Many movies and music titles have transients that require a 15 or 20 decibel increase in the sound. The decibel system is logarithmic, so a 20 db increase in the sound requires 100 times the power output. Hence, it is a very good idea to have plenty of clean power availble for headroom when explosions happen in movies for example. One way to cut down on power needs is to run a good subwoofer and run all speakers as small. Some folks claim that I am wasteing my RF-7s by setting them as small and using an 80 Hz crossover. The 650 watt amp in my RSW-15 handles the very power hungry bass transients with ease. The bottom line is to use a very good subwoofer(s) for bass, so that is my main recommendation for your system. I also run a separate amp for my mains that sounds identical to my receiver. It's my view that most receivers are challenged to power seven channels simultaneously in action movies. My receiverm runs my center and four surrounds. Another way to use a separate amp would be to use a three or five channel amp. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholtl Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 Good Lord, I was sitting back thinking my response was quite informative and then Mr. McGoo comes and talks like a true professor. I think I'll go sit in the corner now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRRush Posted June 8, 2004 Author Share Posted June 8, 2004 Thanks guys, I have not heard anything bad about the Sunfire's yet. Hmmmm. What is their downside? I was leaning toward the B&K 2003 until I came across a deal on the Sunfire. Apparently the Sunfire has a Voltage output and Current output to biwire the speakers(L/F/C) that are supposed to be a huge plus. I know with pushing my RF7's with my Denon 3802 it sounded good, but you don't know what your missing until you've heard better. The 3805 hopefully should be similar, another amp and getting into the dog house with the wife, hmmmmm. I'm used to the dog house, but will the sound improvement be worth it? BTW, I'm craving the RSW-15..... :o/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRRush Posted June 8, 2004 Author Share Posted June 8, 2004 Any last minute opinions on the Amp choice - 1. B&K Ref. 2003 (200 x 3) 2. Sunfire Grand Cinema II (225 x 5) ? Some more have to love 'em or hate 'em..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 In your situation, I would go for the B&K 200.3. The 200 watts should help the RF-7s put out some very fine bass. My information on digital amps leads me to believe that Sunfire is too expensive, and its dual outputs are merely a way of coloring the sound. There is one member that loves his Carver Professional digital amp that puts out 225 watts per channel. It is a much better buy than the Sunfire in my opinion, but requires a special adaptor that can easily be made or purchased. Do not forget about the importance of a subwoofer in a home theater. As for the comment that I sound like a professor, I plead guilty as charged your honor. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 ---------------- On 6/8/2004 9:06:42 PM RRRush wrote: Any last minute opinions on the Amp choice - 1. B&K Ref. 2003 (200 x 3) 2. Sunfire Grand Cinema II (225 x 5) ? Some more have to love 'em or hate 'em..... ---------------- If you want serious power, I'm still gonna say that the Sherbourn 7/2100A (200x7 all channels driven, 20-20Khz) will trounce the B&K. If that ain't enough power for ya, you can always bi-amp the mains with the extra two channels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 ---------------- On 6/8/2004 10:07:28 PM Griffinator wrote: If you want serious power, I'm still gonna say that the Sherbourn 7/2100A (200x7 all channels driven, 20-20Khz) will trounce the B&K. If that ain't enough power for ya, you can always bi-amp the mains with the extra two channels. ---------------- Yeah, but I wonder what the quality of the power will be, although the Sherbourne does indeed look like a nice amp from what I read about it. Would be interesting to do an A/B of the Sherbourne vs. the B&K amp. As to my personal experience, I currently have a B&K Ref 200.7, and it sounds friggan incredible with the Klipsch RF-7s. Excellent clarity and detail, plus it is not harsh sounding at all. I thought it sounded very smooth and clean. I've cranked up my system once just to see how loud it can go. I was getting 120db sustained with the peaks pegging the needle on my Rat-Shack meter, and I did not have the thing turned all the way up! There was no signs that the amp, nor the speakers, were straining. Despite it being so loud, it was still very surpringly listenable. I could've pushed it more, but I didn't because, 1), I did not want the cops called on me, and 2), I kinda like to preserve my hearing! . In the end, if you can get a chance to hear the amps you are interested in, than do so, and go with the one you think sounds best to you. If it is a toss-up, then go with the one you can get the best deal on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 The older B&K Reference 3 channel amps put out 60 amps peak to peak. They were stable with 4 ohm loads and put out 325 watts per channel into 4 ohms. The weight ran 43 pounds. I suspect that the specs have not changed. The 5 and 7 channel Reference amps put out 75 amps peak to peak and 375 watts into 4 ohms. The B&K will put out more clean power than any rational Klipsch owner can use. I have a 140 watt B&K that can drive me out of the room without straining or distorting. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 ---------------- On 6/8/2004 10:26:53 PM skonopa wrote: ---------------- On 6/8/2004 10:07:28 PM Griffinator wrote: If you want serious power, I'm still gonna say that the Sherbourn 7/2100A (200x7 all channels driven, 20-20Khz) will trounce the B&K. If that ain't enough power for ya, you can always bi-amp the mains with the extra two channels. ---------------- Yeah, but I wonder what the quality of the power will be, although the Sherbourne does indeed look like a nice amp from what I read about it. Would be interesting to do an A/B of the Sherbourne vs. the B&K amp. As to my personal experience, I currently have a B&K Ref 200.7, and it sounds friggan incredible with the Klipsch RF-7s. Excellent clarity and detail, plus it is not harsh sounding at all. I thought it sounded very smooth and clean. I've cranked up my system once just to see how loud it can go. I was getting 120db sustained with the peaks pegging the needle on my Rat-Shack meter, and I did not have the thing turned all the way up! There was no signs that the amp, nor the speakers, were straining. Despite it being so loud, it was still very surpringly listenable. I could've pushed it more, but I didn't because, 1), I did not want the cops called on me, and 2), I kinda like to preserve my hearing! . In the end, if you can get a chance to hear the amps you are interested in, than do so, and go with the one you think sounds best to you. If it is a toss-up, then go with the one you can get the best deal on. ---------------- This is why it kills me that I couldn't scrounge up the couple grand to pick up a demo for this trip - I'd love to have you bring your B&K and do a straight shootout over at Klipsch HQ in a full 5 or 7 channel system setup. The B&K's 200wpc is not a true all-channels driven, and it's at 1Khz. The Sherbourn delivers broadband 200wpc into all 7 channels, and can do 300wpc stable all channels driven at 4ohms. That's a clean full spectrum power - and we're talking about a set of 7 monoblocks each with their own power supplies here - true discrete channel amplification. I'm not necessarily suggesting that the Sherbourn sounds "better" than the B&K - but I guarantee you that it'll deliver more headroom and do it with zero crosstalk. B&K makes some fine amps - but Sherbourn makes excellent amps at a lower price point without sacrificing the quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRRush Posted June 8, 2004 Author Share Posted June 8, 2004 I'm not familiar with the Sherbourne, URL's? Looks like I need a little more homework. Whats the Amp go for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 The 5/5210A (5x200) lists for $2400, and the 7/2100A lists for $3000. I'm an authorized dealer and can do significantly better than that. www.sherbourn.com These two amps are beasts, really. Inside the cabinet of each lies a monoblock with its own transformer for every channel, whether 5 or 7. The 7/2100A has two separate power cords to facilitate the current draw (20 amps) without installing a special dedicated outlet (as it will utilize both 10amp plugs) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRRush Posted June 9, 2004 Author Share Posted June 9, 2004 Lets talk, send me some numbers on the 5 channel? ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelerFan Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Steven, You and I both know our B&K amps will more than handle anything we can throw at them at insane listening levels without even breaking a sweat. And still sound as smooth as glass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Dude, 120 watts per will NOT cause problems... How loud do you need it? Is that the question? DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRRush Posted June 9, 2004 Author Share Posted June 9, 2004 Its not a matter of how loud since I'm sure the 3805 will provide the volume, just a matter of can I achieve better SQ and maximize my RF7's with a seperate amp. After spending all that coin on the RF7's I just want to get the most out of their potential. No vibrating the neighbors winders just orgasmic acoustical nirvana. Ahhhh. Just wondering if I'm missing something by not pushing more power to the 7's(for the sake of SS,depth,impact not SPL)? Seems like popular opinion is yes it will benefit. I was surprized that the B&K was voted more highly vs. the Sunfire. Did not expect that, but I was really undecided based on what I have read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Have you also considered Rotel and Parasound? The Rotel RMB-1095 is 200 watts x 5 and lists for $1999.00. You would probably be able to get it for somewhat less from a local authorized Rotel dealer. I run the two channel version for my RF-7s and love the warm, powerful sound (as well as the high damping factor for my woofers). Another amp to consider is the Parasound HCA-2205AT, which is 220 watts X 5 and lists for $1999.00. Fish from this forum runs the 140 watt X 5 version (underrated in power) with a Rotel pre/pro and loves it. You may want to PM him to get his thoughts. Overall, Rotel and Parasound amps are pretty popular with Reference owners. Just a thought. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 ---------------- On 6/9/2004 8:12:26 PM RRRush wrote: Its not a matter of how loud since I'm sure the 3805 will provide the volume, just a matter of can I achieve better SQ and maximize my RF7's with a seperate amp. ---------------- Getting a seperate, more powerful, amplifier would certainly give you more headroom. However, before I got the b&K amp, I was driving my RF-7s with a Denon AVR3802, and it sounded fantastic (which, BTW, I am still using as a pre/pro until the day comes to get a dedicated pre/pro. The Denon works superbly in that regard as well). ---------------- After spending all that coin on the RF7's I just want to get the most out of their potential. No vibrating the neighbors winders just orgasmic acoustical nirvana. Ahhhh. Just wondering if I'm missing something by not pushing more power to the 7's(for the sake of SS,depth,impact not SPL)? Seems like popular opinion is yes it will benefit. ---------------- All, I know, from personal experience, that putting the external amp on the RF-7s vs driving them with the receiver's own amps, did seem to make a marked difference. The clarity and detail just seem to jump right out of the speakers at me! Anyway, I was quite happy with the Denon driving the speakers until I went to Indy last summer and heard those '7's on that Aragon stuff. WOW! I wanted it sooo badly, but unfortunatly, there were no Aragon dealers around. Then I got the chance to hear the B&K stuff at the local dealer. I thought it sounded awesome with the Martin-Logans that it was paired up with. I was sitting thinking, geez, if it sounded this good with the harder to drive Martin-Logans, I could only imagine how it would sound with my Klipsch. A couple months and $3,000 later, I became the proud owener of my very own B&K Ref 200.7, complete with 3 pairs of Monster i950 interconnects thrown in to sweeten the deal (normally about $100/pair). All, I know, from personal experience, is that I gotten my system up to 120db+ sustained with absolutly no distortion or any other signs of strain. Even at that volume, the clarity and detail was still there in spades. It was very listenable even at that kind of volume. I could've pushed it harder, but I did not want to risk damaging my hearing than I already was risking, not to mention that the neighbors probably would had the cops knocking at my door. Hell, I menaged to get the cops called on me a couple of years ago with a friggan set of ProMedia V2.400's hooked up to my computer! And we all know how RF-7s w/ B&K amp compares to the ProMedias ---------------- I was surprized that the B&K was voted more highly vs. the Sunfire. Did not expect that, but I was really undecided based on what I have read. ---------------- Unfortnatly, I've never gotten to hear the Sunfire amp paired with Klipsch RF-7s. I don't know how well/different it may sound compared to the B&K amps. It just seems that B&K is more readily available, and it turned out to be a very good match to the Klipsch. In answer to Griff with regards to the Sherborne amp, given the specs, it certainly looks like a nice amp, and would be nice to hear it compared to the B&K amp. All that aside, I know what I am hearing with the B&K and I sure as hell am not complaining. I mean, come-on. I was getting 120db sustained with absolutly no signs of distorting! How friggan much more louder do I need? Even at normal listening levels, I still do not detect any kind of clipping or distortion on the transients. Unfortunatly, there is no gauge on the front of the B&K to know if it is hitting max power on some transients/peaks. Is it at all possible to get a "loaner" unit, Griff? If so, I'll personally come out your way, and pick both you and it up, and we both can try listening to it on my system here in Fredericksburg and compare it to the B&K. Ah, well, since I'll be seeing you in a day or so, we can discuss this over lunch when meeting up with Gary at the Indy airport anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Indeed. Depending on how things go, I could possibly get my hands on one by the end of the month. I look forward to the get-together. Once again, I wish to emphasize, I don't have anything against the B&K - it's a fine amp. Please don't interpret my interjections about the Sherbourne as a slight on the B&K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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