Surround speaker placement

[MarvinG]

I rarely hear my surround channels.

I have a 5.1 setup - HK525 with RF35's/RC35 up front and the RS-35 surrounds. The surrounds are mounted slightly behind the listener, about 6 feet up, on the rear side walls, facing each other. (see sketch at http://members.rogers.com/msgtech3/ht/images/perspective.jpg).

I've even tried increasing the surrounds on the HK to plus 6db relative to fronts/centres but it makes no real difference.

Is speaker placement my problem? The surround are mounted flush again the wall - do I need to aim the surrounds toward the listener?

What would be a good example of a movie that has good rear channel content?

Thanks

Marvin

[gcoker]

Typically they are pointed towards the seating position

"sweet spot". The best way to set gain on your system is

with a good set up disk and and SPL meter. All speakers

sould be registering the same db's at the listening position.

And yes you should be hearing sound from that direction, however,

not all movies use alot of back channel. Pop in Return of the King

If you want a 6 channel free for all. Good Luck

[Pako]

The placement sounds fine. You should hear it a lot more than just "rarely". Make sure that you are listening to 5.1 content. Not to sound elementary, but are you sure your processor is seeing 5.1 on the digital input from your DVD player? If it's not, you could just be hearing Dolby Surround, not 5.1. Make sure that your are in the 5.1 surround mode on your receiver. Is this your first 5.1 surround system? It sounds like a hardware setup issue, but it could be a lot of things.

Good luck.

[MarvinG]

Yes, it is my first 5.1 setup, so it could indeed be a content/setup issue.

For DVD's, I do ensure the DVD setup is 5.1 and I typically have the receiver om DTS - I assume thats 5.1 - correct?

For some DVD's, I cant select DTS, and end up in Dolby surround, so that could explain it if you are saying surround is not the same as 5.1

Marvin

P.S I erred in my original post...speakers are more like 7 feet up the wall (ie about 6 inches down from the ceiling.)

[schwock5]

Your surrounds are di-pole, not direct firing. For direct firing speakers, your placement is ideal, but with dipoles, the sound doesn't come out straight, but rather comes out the sides to create more of an "atmosphere" rather that pin-pointed sound (which is why music listeneres hate di-poles, but movie watches love them). I think with Dipoles, even in a 5.1 set-up, they are better placed where the back speakers of a 7.1 set-up would be, so the sound fills the back area coming towards the listener, or placed in the back corners of the room, so the dipoles reflect off the walls. See if that helps, but mostly rear surrounds don't contain much information except for wind, rain, and other effects, don't expect to distinguish them as you do your fronts and center channel diologue.

If i am completely off, someone please let me know. But see if it helps, you never know.

[MarvinG]

Most interesting.

Actually, I thought there were three types

1 : monopole (or direct)

2 : bi-pole

3 : di-pole

Per the Klipsch FAQs these are described as follows

1) Monopole" speakers consist of a speaker or group of speakers all firing on the same plane in the same direction. This includes the vast majority of all speakers made. What people think of as "normal speakers" are termed Monopole. With regard to current surround sound formats, monopole speakers are the least desirable because they are the least effective in creating an "enveloping sound field" (ambience). They are good at localization, but that alone is not enough to produce the desired surround effect.

2) If you take a monopole speaker and add another speaker placed 180 degrees opposite of it (i.e. back to back) firing in the same phase, you have a "bipole" speaker. Firing in phase means all drivers on both sides are at the same excursion point at the same time. This creates the exact same sounds coming from both sides of the speaker at the same time. By design, Bipole speakers send no sound directly toward the listener. A bipole speaker will produce good "ambience" as all the sound is reflected off the walls of the room, but is not effective in producing "localized" sounds.

3) If you take the basic design of a bipole speaker with the rear facing drivers firing exactly opposite of the front, you have a "dipole" speaker. Dipole speakers produce a very diffuse sound, which is good for ambience, but, like bipoles, are not very effective at localization. Dipole design further reduces direct sound to the listening position.

I think my speakers, the wide dispersion RS-35, can be set for either bi-pole and di-pole...and the default is bi-pole, which is what I must have as I made no changes.

As to placement:

a) The FAQ further say that "Both bipole and dipole speakers should be mounted on the sides of the listening position and use reflected sound off of the walls to produce their effects. "

But I have also read the opposite, ie "Bipole speakers and direct-radiating speakers work better when youre mounting the speakers on your back walls (again above ear level). "

Intuitively, I always liked the idea of placing the surrounds behind me at ear level or slightly higher.....but the forums advised me to go to the side walls and higher up (per sketch).

The irony is that the placement you suggest, behind the listener, would have been a piece of cake..I already have shelves there, and could have easily hid the wiring. But getting the wiring behind the sides wall (where the speakers are now) was a royal pain, and it took most of the day for two of us to fish the wires through - not to mention some holes we left behind the speakers...if I move them now, I'll need to get the plaster and paint out!

I too would be interested in hearing more (no pun intended) on the dipole-bipole-direct speaker placement debate.

Marvin

[MarvinG]

Does anyone have a 5.1 setup, with the bi-pole or di-pole surrounds on the back wall?

[michael hurd]

I have 5.0, with the rear speakers to the sides, and behind the listening position. To get the channels balanced with my radio shack spl meter, I had to increase the rear channels and decrease the mains and slightly the center.

[michael hurd]

If your rear speakers are 7 feet up the walls, is there any chance you could lower them, or build a shelf/bracket to lower, or angle them down? Some movies have little action in the surround channels, however Pearl Harbour has some awesome use out of the surrounds.

[wheelman]

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On 6/11/2004 2:15:22 PM MarvinG wrote:

Does anyone have a 5.1 setup, with the bi-pole or di-pole surrounds on the back wall?

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Yes I do. I have em setup for bipole this way. I can have bipole or dipole. This setup you rarely hear surround sound. But when you listen to a dvd movie I personally think it's more accurate. Try Hollow Man the movie they got some cool animal sounds in each speaker that are different at one time. My bad I am back to using my cambridge soundworks for surround instead of the klipsch, because of the size I get a better sense of space were their placed. If you like to hear sounds all the time I suggest you put them to the sides. My bad again if you do already. Don't crank em up. this will just ruin the sound.