woofer sound problem! HELP. . .

[Scp53]

so I got this titanic kit sub(250wt 10" mk3 sub). have played it many times quite loud(not overwhelming the driver/amp though) for HT(lord of the rings-the last 2 ones, matrix reloaded and revolution, and pearl harbor.). sounds sooooo good. tight and controled. no bad sounds. then you play music on it and on hard hits(just as much excursion as theater) at higher volumes the sub makes a coning sound. not a sound from it trying to play the music- just the sound of the cone moving and switch direction quickly. and its only for certain music. I play Linkin Park Meteora and it sounds fine at any volume. but on some other cds, I have to play the mains louder to cover up the sound- and even then it doesn't help always. could a sub play excellent for theater and suck at music? I mean I've played it before and thought it was fine for music- maybe Ive naturally wanted it louder. Is it possible that its the amp-because after one song(bass-to bass heavy) loud its hotter than a 3 min bass scene in a movie.

and no its not from its placment. I ve had it 3 different spots- one upstairs and two in the basement. same crap cone movement sound. I even pulled the driver to check if its ok. looks fine to me. no torn suspension anywhere and the cone moves fine when pushed be hand(lightly on the dustcap).

Ive been so happy with it and now I have probablems .

another note about the sound- the crossover setting seams to make little difference. the sound is there regardless of its setting

and could the cone need to be broken in more, Ive had it for a weel or so.

and the last question- do subs like a rsw or other subs of the like make little sounds when the mains are turned off? or do you hear PERFECT BASS when those subs are cranked? no cone sound movement,etc?

thanks in advance. sorry I was son long winded

scp53

JON

note: today- after I tested it on a movie upstairs- I was carrying back down to the basement when I slipped and slide on my back all the way down. I was really f@$#ing lucking that nothing was broken(on me,the house, or the sub). OMG did it scare me. if I would have let the little thing(14"x14x14) roll- it could have really took out the wall because it weighs 50lbs. but Ive walked up and down that stairs before with it no problemo.I quickly checked the driver and amp physically and by playing it- sounds the same. clumsy me. I really need to pay attention when handleing expensive things(I payed 350)

[Frzninvt]

I think you are overworking that 10" woofer, you are asking it to do too much. The sub is "bottoming out" the voice coil is hitting the backplate more than likely and probably making a "clacking" sound. You are overdriving it.

If you like to listen to movies and music at higher levels you are going to need a bigger subwoofer than a 10", or get a second one. If you have a tiny room a 10" sub might be enough but it sounds like it is being overworked. You should have it crossed over at about 80Hz or maybe lower, do you have the volume level set to "max" if so lower it some.

[Scp53]

no the sub is not bottoming. because it moves the same for movies and music- making no bad sounds for movies and this other sound for music. and no the volume is not set on max. usually its between 1/4 and 1/2 on the sub amp.

I asked this same question on another board(PE board)- they said that some cds are being burned "hotter(louder)" and this may cause it to clip. maybe this is the problem?

and you said "crackling sound"- no its no crackling sound. thats for sure.

all I know is it happens on music and not movies even at the same excursion(I watch the driver move-same for both)

[Scp53]

Im 99.9 percent sure its the amp clipping. because the driver is not bottoming and everything else is fine.

[Frzninvt]

Yes I do agree on the CD's being burnt hotter and it can certainly be the case. I have heard something similar on my system on CD's that have been oversaturated with signal. I would have to use my DBX 5BX-DS to compress them some to keep the distortion/noise from occurring. I think that can certainly be the case since you have no issues with DVD's or other sources.

[D-MAN]

Here's a possible reason,

Since most sub woofers are designed to have an extremely long throw and therefore a rather loose suspension, they are not intended to and do not articulate upper bass very well at all. It sounds to me like the thing is possibly getting too much upper bass frequencies through its band-pass than it can handle effectively. This would cause the behavior that you mentioned.

As an experiment, I would consider lowering the band pass upper frequency cuttoff to the sub if possible and see if that solves your problem. A good sub should work the same for movies and music.

One other cause would be if it is a dual voice coil. If that is the case, then I would look for a phase problem in the signal chain.

Good luck.

DM

[itsmyforte]

could be a litz wire bangin the cone, it could be coincidence that you only hear it in music, maybe it hasn't been turned up that lound in movies. generally DTS and DD5.1 have a lower output in the .1(sub) channel than the others, or so it seems that way.

[Scp53]

for movies I have it plenty loud- same amount of excursion as music- actually more cone movement in movies.

I just ran a sin sweep from 10hz to 100hz- there no problem with the driver. a couple of rattles from the amp plate but no problems with the driver. has to be the music and/or amp clipping. for DVD music in movies its fine.

and no the wire is not banging the back of the cone. the basket is like 12-16 spoke- no way the wire can get threw that. besides I already have opened it up before after playing and the wire never was out of place.

[DrWho]

What are you using to playback music and what are you using to playback your movies? Is it possible that the bass management on your reciever is different for the two sources? (like do you have any tone controls activated when playing music that aren't there when in surround sound mode?)

Another thing I'd consider is the difference in sounds between movies and music. The heavy bass in movies tends to come from explosions and other similar effects that I'd think would mask that sound coming from your sub.

Is the sound you're hearing from your speaker more of a huffing sound or is it a more crisp whisping of the air? As I understand so far, I don't think the sound you're trying to describe sounds like a clipping amp or clipping source at all. Modern music may be "mixed loud", but no digital recording can physically exceed 0dB and your equipment's gain structure should be able to handle a 0dB signal with all your gains cranked.

[Scp53]

the tone control is the same. all I can really adjust is where the bass goes- sub, main, or both.

I don't think its being masked by the sounds it makes in movies. there are music parts in movies that play just fine. when I go to music though I can have problems.

I ll try to describe it better- the sound. well first off the music sounds fine from low to med levels. its on the higher excursion that I get a sound(on some songs)- like the driver isn't controled when it switches directions- the driver is not dampening correctly, which means the amp is not doing its job. Im positive the driver(which is a titanic mk3- about 19 lbs and built like a tank) is not at fault because its been designed by Van Dickenson(audiophile speaker designer)- so the driver matches the cab/amp well. I just think that he put a lesser powered amp into it- keeps it cheaper. the amp is only feeding the sub a little over half or what the sub can take- so its hungry for more. kits above mine- one is a 12" and has a amp that matches its rms pwr and a 15 that handels 800wt and amp has 1000wt of power. so those subs are not underpowered.

why would a VERY well built driver all the sudden be uncontroled?

remember Ive ran sin wave from 10hz to 100hz- a couple rattles but not driver problems.

Im still set on the fact that the cd is burned hotter/amp clipping from cd being "hot".

any better way to test it?

shouldn't a sin wave do it?

Ive talked to multiple people- from different areas(areas-like tech support,neighbor whos into sound, this forum, PE forum, etc) each thought it could easily be possible for the cd being the problem.

thanks for all the replies

scp53

[DrWho]

well does it happen with just one cd or a groupd of cds from the same producer? Maybe you just have some bad recordings? Keep in mind though that if you try an older cd that there is usually less lower frequency information so keep that in mind when doing comparisons.

Another thing you might consider is doing a 10 or 15Hz high pass filter on your subs input. I have heard of similar problems where a sub is recieving random subharmonic information that causes the woofer to move a lot and create problems like you're experiencing.

If you really think your amp is the culprit, you could do an easy test and hook up one of your mains outs directly to your subwoofer and see if you hear it then (make sure you have the mains set to large or the sub + mains setting). Granted, you'll get a lot of HF information sent to the woofer, but you should still be able to make a comparison.

Another thing you might try is playing a cd and sending the sub out from the reciever right back into another a input on your reciever and plugging your sub into a zone2 out that is playing the input you've connected to...or if you just happen to have a spare amp laying around that might prove to be a lot easier (i prob should have suggested that first, oh well).

[radiob]

I had this happen to me with my sweet paradigm servo 15. When I would hook the x-30 crossover between the sub out on my pre and sub. I asked my audiostore about it, and they told me to not hook up the x-30 crossover to the sub out on pre, just run sub out on pre directly to the sub.Apperently I was crossin over to much.Any way if I want to use the x-30 I use it between the main out and amp, not the sub out. Never had a problem since. Althogh your problem is probobly the sub bottoming out against the bottom of your stairs, that will make a odd sound every time.

[Scp53]

If I just run a sine wave from 10hz-100hz- shouldn't that tell me if theres a problem. tomorrow I need to fix some rattles on it-amp plate resonates, spikes, etc.

I wish i had a spare amp. like something more powerful. right now Im using my sub out on the DVD player(no, I haven't got a surr. receiver with sub out. i really need to get it though). I also have run it with stereo line in from the dvd player and then back out to the receiver. but when I run it on my parents yamaha surr receiver, I get the same darn thing- with the same cds/songs.

can a amp clip and not get hot? it seems to me that usually when this sound occurs is when the amp is on the warmer side. unless I have just powered it up.

[itsmyforte]

sounds like the problem is the amplifier. i'd bet its either clipping, or the limiter kicks in on the amp. can you record the sound your hearing? i'd put my money on the amp is clipping though. its being overdriven by musical peaks exceeding the power supply. which causes the rails to sag and clip the music signal. you already mentioned it occurs when the amp is warmer than when its cold.

[colterphoto1]

Your 'sine-wave' test may be fooling you. Sine waves are pretty and smooth, like violin notes. Linkin Park ROCKS! So your 'test' and real sound sources are entirely different.

IMO you're overdriving your sub when playing music. It depends a lot on your source material. During HT use, normal movies only hit those really killer low notes once in a while, unless you're watching EARTHQUAKE! Your ROCK music has those notes several times in each measure and today's musicians have lots of tech toys to add harmonics, fuzz, etc to those notes. ?? Does Linkin's Bass player use a 5 or 6 string Bass? If so, then he's hitting notes much lower than 32 Hz (open E on normal bass gtr).

For the time being, turn it down a bit until you can get a really killer sub rig.