Beesley Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 TPG/TheEar/F.Frankie/Firepinch/Formica, I have a question for you and anyone else that has experience with DIY subs. I am considering purchasing an Adire audio DPL12 and power it with a Samson 700 watt amp (350W per Voice coil). I plan to build the cabinet using the 15" Passive Radiator plan off Adire Audio's web site (I tried to attach it to this message, hope it works). I'm wondering how it would perform compared to other commercial subs in its price range (650.00) I know Hsu, SVS, and outlaw have some good subs under 650, but I'm hoping it may perform even better. I'd like to know what you all think before I fork out that kind of cash..................I am in the military......Enlisted........work almost 80hrs per week........but do get the satisfaction of serving America.......HalleluYah! PR15andDPL12ComboKit1.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 Hi- I am using an Adire DPL12 in my sealed sub... powered with 300W per coil. It sounds really good... but my only complaint is its efficiency. It takes more power than other subs to hit the same levels. Other than that, it is very punchy (well, not as much as an RSW, I suppose...) I wish I would have used a PR as well instead of just sealing it... oh well. The DPL12 makes a good subwoofer... but in my experiences, it can't keep up with RF-3's playing too loudly. Though..... positioning could be a huge factor in that-- don't take my word to be the final there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 do a search on a program called WinISD. it allows you to input driver parameters and gives you a plot of the kind of power you should be able to get out of it, and how big to make the box/passive radiator etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beesley Posted September 5, 2004 Author Share Posted September 5, 2004 Hi, I also noticed how low the effeciency was, but I wasn't sure much of a factor it would be. I am looking for a sub to keep up with KLF-20s because the ksw-12 is just not cutting it. The KSW-12 playes a couple frequencies pretty loud but its just not consistant throughout the frq. I know an eq would help, but its more the sub than anything else. Fine for HT, but not as much a sub as I would like for music. I'll check out WinISD, I'd really like a PR design, maybe I can check out a couple other 12" drivers and see what come up. Any Ideas on some 12" drivers (under 200.00) that will work well in a PR enclosure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InventiveAudio.com Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 Keep in mind that a driver with an 87db efficiency will take twice the power to get the same SPL of a driver with 90db's of efficiency. Also, keep in mind that your sub box needs to be rock solid. 1" Baltic Birch is probably the best material or you can use 3/4" ply with 3/4" MDF and glue the board together. Make sure you do lots of reading because making a sub is not just taking a driver and plopping it inside a box. If you have no carpenty skills then you are probably better off buying used on Ebay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beesley Posted September 5, 2004 Author Share Posted September 5, 2004 Well, I watch HGTV and TLC with my wife, have access to www.diynetwork.com, had a year of woodshop about 13 yrs ago in eighth grade, and have a passion to get the best product I can for as little as possible. I know if I mess up, I may end up spending more than I intend, HA!!! what a hobby! I don't even think the DPL12 is 87 db efficient, I may be wrong though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 Ya... the DPL12 is listed at 84dB/1W (87dB/2.83V, though...)... Either way... Your KLF-20's are 100dB/1W efficient. This means that if you give your DPL12 full power (lets just say 600W), you'll get about 112dB out of it. Your KLF-20's hit this mark with 16W. Big difference... Not to say it won't work out well. I redid some crossover work with mine and got some more bass out of it. Sounds much better... I am running a KSW-12 along with it, though, but I try to lessen the KSW-12 to avoid boominess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Before giving my opinion, I'd like to know why would you like the DPL12 in a vented PR enclosure? It may or may not be a good combination for you, depending what you'd like from it. There are several important characteristics/compromises when choosing a driver... so I'm wondering what drove you to this combination? The DPL12 driver was designed to maximize bass extension... but it sacrifices efficiency and maximum SPL to achieve it (Hoffman's Iron Law). In a ported enclosure, the driver will reach it's maximum excursion very quickly with a low bass note. Given this limitation, and its very good bass extension, it is an excellent driver for a sealed enclosure like tpg is using it in. The sealed enclosure helps control the driver by rolling off it's response before it's Fs. Since you are looking for accuracy and SPL on a tight budget... I don't think a DPL12 in a PR enclosure is the best solution for you. How critical is size to you? Some of SVS offerings are quite large. If you are willing to live with the added size, there are quite a few DIY drivers that'll give you similar bass extension, more output... but require a larger box. In that case you could use a standard port and reinvest the money for the PR towards your main driver. Later... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InventiveAudio.com Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 I would suggest a driver with 88-90db efficiency and a low q. 84db is too low and you'll end up spending lots of loot on an amp. Also, look for a driver that can be used in a sealed enclosure. It'll sound more musical then a vented design (my opinion here)and will be less costly to build and easier to get right. Tuning a vented sub can get tricky. I would also discourage the use of a sub amp and buy a used bridgeable stereo amp off ebay. If you need a croosover you can use FMODS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beesley Posted September 6, 2004 Author Share Posted September 6, 2004 Well, I was looking at existing blueprints for drivers that Adire Audio sells and I came across the PR design. A few vented subs I've listened to had so much port noise that I didn't want to risk building a sub only to find out the port noise was as bad as the KSW-12. I've also heard that sealed enclosures generally don't play as low as PR and vented boxes. I'm not experienced with the charactoristics of each design, onl;y what I've read. Basically I'd like a sub that can play failry low (25HZ) but have the paccuracy for music. I figured Klipsch RSW uses a PR design, its a good sub, why not do smething vaguely similar. Size isn't too critical, but I definatley don't want anything larger than a PB-2 or cylinders. I've been searching for amps on the web, and yes, a lot of options. I thought about a sealed enclosure, but how would that affect the bass extension? ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 For an amp, check out Nady Audio's webpage. They are having some sort of closeout on their amps and are selling them direct for REALLY cheap. The best deal on there is a 1400W bridged amp for under $200 if I remember right. Great power for hardly anything. I have a Nady XA-1100 (1100W bridged) and it pushes my sub quite well. It is the DPL12's inherent lack of SPL that only limits the system... For the same price (but bigger enclosure) maybe the Tempest? Higher SPL, more air, lower bass... might be worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beesley Posted September 6, 2004 Author Share Posted September 6, 2004 ---------------- On 9/6/2004 12:52:15 PM tpg wrote: For an amp, check out Nady Audio's webpage. They are having some sort of closeout on their amps and are selling them direct for REALLY cheap. The best deal on there is a 1400W bridged amp for under $200 if I remember right. Great power for hardly anything. I have a Nady XA-1100 (1100W bridged) and it pushes my sub quite well. It is the DPL12's inherent lack of SPL that only limits the system... For the same price (but bigger enclosure) maybe the Tempest? Higher SPL, more air, lower bass... might be worth it. ---------------- TPG, Its funny you mention the tempest, I was just on their website and it looks like a very promising sub. They offer PR plans for it as well, doesn't look to difficult to make. I have access to a good size woodshop here on base and there is an on duty carpenter to assist if people have any questions. Why are the amps so cheap? Is there much difference between the quality of these amps and say like samson? I only ask because I had so many cheaper recievers that quoted 100 or 120 wpc but they were nothing compared to the H/K 75wpc reciever I'm using now. I know theres a quality of power to be supplied, curious to know if that applies to powering a sub as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 The Nady's aren't really that cheap always. They retail for $450 or something. There is a closeout sale going on... so they are marked down a lot. Quality of power doesn't matter as much... but it still matters. You need lots of RMS power... and even more peak. Subs are very demanding... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beesley Posted September 6, 2004 Author Share Posted September 6, 2004 Cool, thsnks.....I may just go ahead and purchase the amp. I was going to build a red oak audio rack, but the amp seems like a sweet deal. How do you think the Shiva compares to the DPL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 I have done a lot of modeling with the DPL12, Shiva, Tempest, Dayton's, Strykes, etc. in WinISD... When speaking in terms of the recommended ported box that WinISD figures, the DPL12 should win out for max. extension... but it will hit its excursion limits before that low F3 would be useful... Shiva is a little more efficient... but Tempest is the most efficient of all. When choosing between the Tempest and DPL12, I wish I would have gone with Tempest now for the extra SPL. It would REALLY help. The Shiva has a big following... but so does the Tempest. Also, just to through this out, don't overlook the Stryke woofers (AV-12 and AV-15). They are amazing... but they do cost more. Really, I wish I would have held out for one of these instead of any of the Adire line... but.. hind-sight is 20/20. heh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 DRIVER: As I've mentioned in the past, for DIY "bang for the buck", I'd recommend a 15" driver... You'd have to play with a bunch of different drivers in WinISD to help you decide on the size/cost/performance balance that you are willing to live with. Here are the most popular drivers, and a summary of their characteristics... Adire Tempest 15" (large enclosure, efficient, $) Dayton 15" DVC (large enclosure, efficient, $) Stryke AV-15 (mid-sized enclosure, mid efficiency, $$) Dayton 15" Titanic (mid-sized enclosure, mid efficiency, $$) Blueprint Desings 1503 - 15" (mid-sized enclosure, mid efficiency, $$) Adire Tumult 15" (Small enclosure, inefficient, $$$) Obviously the less efficient drivers have the added cost of a more powerful amplifier to drive them. Personally I'm a fan of the "mid-sized enclosure, mid efficiency, and mid priced" units like the Stryke, Titanic and the Blueprint. These will produce enclosures around the size of the SVS PB2 or slightly less. VENTING - PORT - PR: I you want to use a PR, it needs to be able to displace more air than your driver (as it's tuned as you driver's frequency response rolls off)... that is why you see a lot of plans which call for 2 or 3 PRs to be used with a single driver. This adds substantially to the cost... or will limit the subs performance if you eliminate one. A PR is basically a type of a Vent the same way as a Port is. A port is actually more flexible in that it isn't limited by excursion... but by the air velocity within it. Keep the velocity low enough in your design (by using a larger port)... and port noise won't be a problem. If you use a non-flared port, a maximum of 17 m/sec of air velocity is recommended for home speakers while 34 m/sec is usually spec'ed for Pro/PA speakers. If you flare the ports, the non-audible air velocity will increase depending on the flaring used. Notice how the new Klipsch THX flagship subwoofer uses one large single port, to keep port velocity down. AMPLIFIERS: Before discussing pro amps, I'd like to mention that most use a FAN to cool their circuits. These fans may be next to inaudible in a concert hall with 110db of music playing... but can become quite noticeable in a HT with a quiet movie scene that follows a loud one. Multi-speed fans are a nice feature to have as a bare minimum. Other options include fanless studio pro amps, home amps, or refitting a regular unit with a quiet fan. There are many different things which dictate the price of an amp... even within a companies own models. Everything from features (Cliping LEDs, multiple speed fans, 4ohm or 2ohm bridged support, weight, etc...) to build quality (reliability, dynamic power, etc...). Someone posted some pictures inside their Nady amp on the HTF forums, and it definitely doesn't have the build quality of a QSC, but definitely still a bargain at those liquidation prices. Samson has a similar construction to the Nady. You can get the max out of a Tempest with a subwoofer plate amp.... but the Tumult requires one of the larger Pro amps around! Later... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beesley Posted September 7, 2004 Author Share Posted September 7, 2004 I will definately read up on sub charactoristics, there's more involved than I thought, and thats awesome because I like to learn; especially when its something fun. I'll mess around with the software and see whats going on I did notice the Shiva PR design called for the use of 2 PR. If I did go that route I just hope it turns out more like an RSW than an LF-10. I do appreciate all of your help, I've learned a lot just from these replys. It just so remarkable how some super small subs can go that deep with so much SPL. I went to SoundTrack about 12 days ago and heard the Sunfire Signature...OH MY GOODNESS thats a whole lotta Sub in something so small. Anyway, maybe I'll Just build an 11 inch cube throw 3000 watts of power to it and hold my breath........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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