Klipsch Reference series questions n' stuff. ;)

[Erukian]

I've been out of the audio scene for a while. College + Linux has pretty much swallowed up most of my study/hobby time. Oh, and don't forget the girls. And being in the hospital for a month, but that's another story.

So In my sig you can see my setup. Which I dont think is half bad. But I noticed something. When listening to like a $25 stereo i noticed most of the time the voices are accentuated over the intstrumentals. But when I'm listening to cd's with my stereo, it seems almost hte opposite. I hear bells and such overlapping the voices and so I find myself turning up the volume to 80-95b when I really want to hear everything in the sound.

Anyhow, I'm wondering how this will affect my hearing in the long run, right now im 20 going on the legal age of 21 I find myself cranking the sound up to nearly 95db in some cases for hours on end when I dont want to hear the freeway outside (about 3/4 a mile away). My dad said as long as it doesnt make you feel uncomfortable or painful then your not hurting your ears. Note, these measurements were taken with just a $40 RadioShack Sound-Pressure Meter, but it gives me an idea of my listening volumes at least.

Also, I have some questions about placement with reference speakers. Right now the speakers are a good 3"ft apart, and about 4ft away from my head on a wooden board about 1/2 inch thick. Also when considering the elevation of the speakers, my ears are right between the mid-woofer and the horn when just sitting in my chair. So /w the 6.5" drivers I might not be getting the best stereo seperation it seems. What would moving the speakers off the computer desk to real speaker stands do? What type of stands (wood vs metal) would be optimal? What about height. I have these speakers hooked up to my PC which has the Envy HT DAC which is really really good. So i'm losing almost no quality in the playback department. The only thing I question is the stuff inside my old old harman kardon amp.

I think im rambling.. yep I am. So let me start wrapping this up. I plan on upgrading my receiver from a HK340 to a HK430 w/ the dual power supply's. What can I do to fix it up once I get it? What would I use to clean it up and make it look new or remove any scratches on the metal? What about de-oxying the jacks on the back? Or replacing some of the components on the inside with better ones. What are some of my options here?

There's a LOT of questions and stuff above, so if you can pick it apart and respond to each one that'd be really cool.

Thanks for your patience,

Joe

[meuge]

Anything over 85dB of sustained RMS pressure will result in hearing loss over the long term. You really should try to find out why you feel like you need to turn up the sound that high. Do some measurements at your listening position and ensure that the frequency response curve is flat... due to room problems you might be having problems with your midrange

[michael hurd]

Cheap speakers have uneven frequency response, usually boosting the midrange to sound louder. 95 db is quite loud for extended periods. OSHA has tables on allowable sound pressure levels and the duration in time for exposure.

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9736

[michael hurd]

A set of speaker stands would help out wonders. You can use any stand you like, as well as a wall mount bracket. Just make sure they are sturdy enough for the weight. The tweeter should be about the same height as your ear for the smothest response. Moving them to 5 feet apart would make a big difference in seperation.

[Erukian]

I took my closet doors off a while ago and stuck them in the garage. Because I never used them, I just keep my closet open and have my TV/xbox on one side and the dresser on the other. I grabbed one of the nice cherry wood doors and put it down, so now i have about 6 ft of extra desk and the speakers about 5 1/2 ft apart. It's a temporary fix. the wood is hollow inside, I dont think it'll affect the sound too much since the speakers are on those little rubber mounts that are supposed to isolate the sound.

When I did my measurements I was pretty "off" to say the least.

Right now, it's 12:30 and I consider it to be a good-to-loud listening volume. The window's closed so my room is pretty much isolated soundwise and I can hear all the detail I want in my music. The Radioshack Meter says 70 db using C weighing, and about 60 with A weighing.

During the day it gets hot, i have to open my window + turn on the fan and have the freeway outside (Interstate 5 which is to say the least, busy and loud all the time except 3-4AM and the ambient noise is about 70db (agian, C weighted)

When i said my range was 80-95, that was with C weighing, when i do A it's about 65-85.. rarely ever i go above 85, and that's only when a loud part of a movie goes off.

I always set the meter to MAX so it will only report on the LCD the loudest the sound is getting, and that's about what I'm reporting.

I'm starting to question if i'm losing hearing already

[Rickieheinz]

Also, I have some questions about placement with reference speakers. Right now the speakers are a good 3"ft apart, and about 4ft away from my head on a wooden board about 1/2 inch thick. Also when considering the elevation of the speakers, my ears are right between the mid-woofer and the horn when just sitting in my chair. So /w the 6.5" drivers I might not be getting the best stereo seperation it seems. What would moving the speakers off the computer desk to real speaker stands do? What type of stands (wood vs metal) would be optimal? What about height. I have these speakers hooked up to my PC which has the Envy HT DAC which is really really good. So i'm losing almost no quality in the playback department. The only thing I question is the stuff inside my old old harman kardon amp.

There's a LOT of questions and stuff above, so if you can pick it apart and respond to each one that'd be really cool.

_________________________________________________________

I have RF3 II's also I have them about 8-10 feet apart and then toe them in. Toeing them in improves their sound and will give you a better soundstage but the ideal listening range will be about 5 feet or more away.

I recently got a tube amplifier and found that the speakers now sound good at low volume levels too.Before I cranked them up much more.I also don't get any listening fatigue now where I did before. But I listen to a lot of classical and relatively high pitched choral music. I was using a Rotel which was detailed but I thought not a good match for these speakers.

I'm not familiar with th amp that you are fixing up so I won't comment on that. Good luck.

[meuge]

You'd be surprised how trashy the Envy DAC is relatively speaking. I did not think so until I did an A/B experiment where I actually used a very good DIY 1/8->2xRCA cable into my old receiver vs. using a digital out into my old receiver. The difference was really stunning, because the receiver's DAC sounded so much better. After I got my separates I compared again, and the difference was night and day.

So even though the Envy chip is the best when it comes to consumer audio, it is nowhere near the standards for hifi audio.

Right now I am using an MSB Link III DAC that I got from Audiogon for $250, and it was an awesome upgrade over using a receiver as a DAC... and is worlds better that using analog outs.

[Erukian]

Seriously, I put the speakers about 5-6 ft apart and MAN they sound different. Much more stereo seperation. But for watching movies the voices seem to spread out. I guess that's what 5.1 is for right? You can't always have you cake and eat it too.

Yeah, it seems my hearing is just fine. I actually went and got it checked this morning before class. I was REALLY concerned. Apparently I can hear up to 19khz which the doc said is really remarkable and usually only women can hear that high if that high.

Maybe why I feel I need to turn it up more is the amp? I do get listening fatigue after 2-3 hours of playback. Not just bordom of the music, but like "i need to turn this off it's irritating me". I never seriously thought and amp would matter. I though just having a vintage HK receiver would be good enough.

I have a hard time justifying dumping 200-300 on a new amp when i put about 700 into the stereo and sub. Especially with my college budget playing catch-up with me since classes started again.

I asked the doc actually to use his device that played back something at 95db and it was freaking LOUD. I think my radioshack meter is doing something funky.

--- BACK ON TOPIC JOE!

I noticed center of my room lacks a ton of bass. I'm talking a 15-20db boost when point the mic in the middle of the room to the sub to pointing it to the opposite corner of the subwoofer. I think that this might be also affecting my RB-25's and why I'm having trouble listening to certian instruments. It also explains why my Grado SR-125's and Sennheiser HD-580's sound awesome and crystal clear in comparison. I guess my room just has a black hole sucking in half of my sound

[dodger]

Hi Joe:

Three things stand out:

1. The noise generated by being near an Interstate. I am 3/4 of a mile from one. At night with the window open, I am amazed at how loud it seems. Plus it is a good part in the upper low to mid-range band. That would account for some of the need for the higher volume during the day.

2. You have a hole - standing waves can produce that. Changing the speaker position a few inches to a few feet can alter that problem, toe in or toe out will also have an effect.

3. Use of a sub correctly. A sub will add to the SPL. If the sub is putting out too much compared to your receiver that can be a large part of the problem.

You mentioned television. We are trained to have the sound come straight from the set itself.

Part of the fascination of Multi Channel in theaters and at home is experiencing sound from various points. You note the difference when you listen to sound as you have moved your speakers apart. Perhaps purchasing a small second set will be useful. Make sure that they are shielded and use them as speakers "B." If you are using your sub as "B" A radio shack or Niles speaker selecter for the "B" only - choosing between sub and TV speakers may help.

Experiments in placement, angles, investigating all background noise competing with your system is key to proper audio. Moving to the 430 is good, but if the sub is up too much, you may be faced with the same problem.

Blinds on the windows may be good as they will let air in, but if angled down, will reflect the Interstate noise back out.

Good Luck,

dodger

[Erukian]

can you elaborate on me having a hole? I dont think I quite got that.

Thanks

[dodger]

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On 10/4/2004 7:00:09 PM Erukian wrote:

can you elaborate on me having a hole? I dont think I quite got that.

Thanks

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Sorry, brain ahead of fingers.

All frequencies can be measured in lenhth. Example, a Low 'C' on an organ is I believe 32 feet long. If your room dimensions are in the wrong proportions to certain frequencies, there is not enough room for the soundwave to travel properly. Thus the frequencies seem to stand, while other portions of other frequencies continue to travel.

I call it a hole as you can move either the speakers or move yourself to a different spot in the room and not notice the standing wave.

Thus the experimentaion in placement - Reference seem to be more placement sensitive in certain dimension rooms. Dimensions being LxWxH. There is a formula, but if your ears are good and you can't change dimensinions, placement changing will make a difference. Sometimes it takes a few inches, sometimes a few feet.

I would also recommend that you check to make sure your speakers are in phase - positive to positive, negative to negative.

I would also try moving your sub.

I have been asked about some systems that the owner swore was out of phase. I found good sound until the sub was turned on. In those cases it was a smaller room, the sub was all the way to the right or left and moreso in front of the speaker.

Even though bass is mni-directional, having all of the bass coming from one side made the opposite side appear to have less bass and seem out of phase. Moving the sub can help.

Much blame is placed on equipment and the human ears. The owners don't experiment enough with proper placements.

If you have more questions, I don't mind if you PM me. If you check the email box also, please note Forum in the subject line. I won't open otherwise.

dodger