how small can a woofer/box be, how high the x/o to a sub, and not sound like "tiny toons"?

[jdm56]

I guess the essence of what I'm asking is, is there any way a Reference satellite with say, a 5" woofer crossed over at 200hz to a pair of RW-12s' could hold it's own with bigger, more expensive combos? At least at non-stupid volume levels? This is just a hypothetical.

[T2K]

Don't know about the small reference series but a pair of KG2.5's and an SW12II that I used with a tube amp caused no suffering for 2-channel. The tractrix horn in a pair of KT-LCR's was even better. Great imaging.

Keith

[Frzninvt]

Doug,

Your downsizing? I see you have your Belle center and Heresy II's for sale, going smaller? Wow after all the time you waited for that center I never thought I would see you part with it.

[ZAKO]

jdm56......I could piss louder than a 5" woofer. As J Gorden Holt said. Theres no sutch thing as a 5" woofer. I agree with him. Even Paul Klipsch pointed out the high distortion in a small woofer to no other than another speaker designer HARTLY.

[jdm56]

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On 10/8/2004 6:26:34 AM Frzninvt wrote:

Doug,

Your downsizing? I see you have your Belle center and Heresy II's for sale, going smaller? Wow after all the time you waited for that center I never thought I would see you part with it.

----------------

Yeah, I can't believe I've come to this, either! But it is the culmination of a number of issues, some audio, some not. The straw that broke the camels back, was a "re-awakening" I had to how good two channels, properly set up, in a good room, can sound. By proper, I mean away from room boundaries. And by a good room, I mean any room except my HT room! Really, it is not a bad room, except for cornerhorns. I designed it myself, but let's just say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and leave it at that. Beyond that issue, my other rooms are just too small to do the false corner thing, but I may try that as a last resort, if the k-horns don't sell this week.

I think I just reached the point where I basically gave up the fight. See, in my HT room, with the horns in the corners, there are two options: sit out in the room on or near the horns axis and get no bass, or sit within two feet of the back wall and get no life. And neither location gives me any three-dimensionality, or depth of image. Really, the answer probably is false corners, but I just doubt I would be happy looking at that, out in the room. I mean, k-horns with mini-walls sticking out on either side would just be huge in my smallish family room (15x22) or HT (16x18.5)

Maron, in my question, I am really talking about a set-up where the little 5", 8" or whatever, woofers would be crossed over to a sub or two up fairly high; say 150-200hz. So I'm wondering how small a speaker could a person get by with, doing that, and not end up having a system that ~sounds~ like little speakers.

[colterphoto1]

IMHO, one of the main problems with a 'satellite-sub' system is that we really can perceive directionality in low frequencies much more than some designers would have you believe. For instance, I installed a small HT system for my brother with Klipsch quintets and KSB12 in a corner. The crossover is just so high that you really can tell where all the lows are coming from and 2-ch listening really suffers because the soundstage is just all wrong, despite the smoothness of the overall frequency response.

I do have a system of Klipsch KSB1.1's KSC-C1 and KSB15 that seems not to bad in this regard, but I'd rather have reference series (hey the 1.1's were 2 for $115 clearance). WOuld recommend no smaller than RB5's if you've got the space. I think trying to get 100Hz out of 5" is asking too much. IMO, you should still attempt to get as much bass out of the mains as possible, 20-40, 40-80, 80-160, I wouldn't want to give up any more than the lowest two- 2 1/2 octaves to the sub at the most. Hope this helps.

[jdm56]

I guess what makes me think it could work, is I've noticed many floor-standing three-ways that use 3" - 6" mids that cross over to the woofers at 100-200hz. So why not do that with sub/sats? Especially, if two subs are used. For example, the Polk RTi-12 uses two 5 1/4" mids that cross over to three 7" woofers at 125hz. But my only experience with sub/sats is with cheap RatShack Pro-77's (5"woofer/1" tweeter) used with an (also cheap) RatShack passive 12" sub. I am running these little buggers in my family room, with a Panasonic receiver, crossing over from sats to sub at 150hz. And I'll tell you, with video and accoustic music, they sound pretty darned good, considering the ultra low cost and small sat size. Bass localization is rarely an issue. (the sub is off to the right of the front speakers, in a corner) Now with rock, or any kind of electric music, it is a different story. Then, they sound like they look: like tiny tot speakers.

[ZAKO]

An 8" of any kind would match up with most subs crossing at 100hz .. But why not go Lowther with a smaller type horn? Full range single speakers work well this way , Lowther, Fostex , etc.

[jdm56]

I've never heard a Lowther before. For that matter, I've never seen one except in magazines. I guess there ' different designs using the Lowther driver. Is that right?

[jdm56]

I am really a "plug'n'play" kind of guy. That is one reason I was so intrigued with the little ADS HT400LCR's. They are less than 16" high, 7" wide and 10" deep. The enclosure is cast aluminum. They use two 5 1/4" "woofers" and one 1" soft-dome tweeter. It looks like the same tweeter ADS was using 25 years ago! The speaker weighs in at a chunky 39 pounds!! -Perforated steel grilles (same as the '70's) One thing kind of alarms me about the design - spring clip speaker terminal (albeit gold ones). That doesn't exactly indicate an audiophile design brief, does it. But DANG, they are cheap, when you consider build quality - $250-300 a pop.

Hey Mark, aren't you in St. Louis? HOW 'BOUT THEM RAMS??? ...Cards are doing rather well too, I see.