Tow centers or one?

[rplace]

Current speaker inventory looks to be shaping up as this:

Fronts Chorus

Sides Heresy

Rears Heresy

Sub KSW 200

The question is with the center. I will be using one Forte IIor will I? I will have a fixed screen of 45X80 and current plans are to have the screen far enough off the floor to allow for the Forte to be upright below it. About 36 give or take. This puts the screen a bit high and not a whole lot of room at the top.

My concern is that dialogue will sound out of place with a large screen and speaker below (not an issue in my mind with current TV in the 35+ inch range and center on top). First, with this set up should I be concerned? Second, since I have the other speaker should I alter my set up and think about Forte above and below screen? Forte above would HAVE to be on its side due to wall height, Forte below might have to be to accommodate this. I think I would also need a way to angle top Forte down a bit. I know a safe bet would be to try it and see if I like it, but I am in the process of building walls and running wire so I really cant test it. I guess I could always run the wire and leave it there for the future, but I dont really want to change screen placement from current plans if I dont need to.

I see pix of systems with centers above and below but they typically seem to be a custom built set up of a larger something at the bottom of screen and smaller something else at the top. Any reason for that? When you run two centers is there any better way then a Y cable from center output to two channel amp, then two sets of speaker wire from amp channels to speakers?

[rplace]

Nice typing, eh? Title should read TWO not tow...Hmmm, Monday.

[colterphoto1]

I vote for a single speaker placed on side as close to bottom of screen as possible, angled directly at listening postion- ear level. Why one? With dialog, placement and directionality are everything, witness the design of today's modern center speakers, like the Klipsch RC7 with tapered array xover so ONLY ONE SPEAKER carries the bulk of the human voice. Multiple sources create multiple reflections and blur the sound image.

Of course, others will disagree...

just my .02

Michael

[rplace]

Interesing, I assumed if I went with one Forte I would want it standing up so the highs/mids were still close to the bottom of the screen and oriented as originally intended. Would it make most senes if I go that route to place the woffer end away from the corner that my sub is in or does that not really matter?

Thanks for the input, Rich

[Olorin]

You assumed correctly. The Forte is made to stand upright. One, oriented the way it was designed to be oriented, is all you need. You're on your way to an awesome setup.

EDIT: Missed addressing this the first time around. Two things come to mind. One, the Forte has risers built into it. You can get your screen an inch or two lower by removing those risers. The other has to do with where the sound appears to originate. By way of example, I have my Academy sitting on top of my RPTV, and room dimensions dictate that we sit fairly close to the TV. The result is that the speaker is well above the mouths of the people talking. My wife and I both commented on it when I first set it up, and we were both bothered by it for about two and a half minutes. Now we don't even notice any more, and nobody who has viewed the system has said anything about that particular problem. I think you'll find that your brain will learn to adapt to the difference.

As for splitting the cabinet, I suppose you could if you are really a glutton for punishment. I think, though, you wouldn't be solving the problem so much as trading for a different one.

[Strabo]

Would it be a bad idea to split up the Forte?

By that I mean, remove the horns from the cabinet and reseal the cabinet with some plywood. Then pull the screen down lower, to the woofer, and mount the horns above the screen pointing down to the listening position.

Just a thought.

[DrWho]

Seperating the drivers does cause a time delay between them. This difference causes a change in amplitude as well as phase of the signal and would require some change in the electronics in order to obtain the flattest frequency response. The Mid frequency driver crosses over to the woofer at 650Hz so it's not like "ignoring" the woofer can be done because the human voice typically goes down to about 100Hz.

Another thing to keep in mind is that our ears don't differentiate differences in height very well at all. Your chorus speakers are only 40" tall. When listening to music, does it really sound like the musicians are only 3'4" tall? And then when you take into account the room's acoustics, your sound stage is going to get even wider and taller such that changes in the center speaker's height is only going change the frequency response more than it's actual percieved location. If you're not going to raise the height on your mains to match the middle of the screen, then I think you should leave the center at the same height as your mains.

I was thinking about movie theaters and how the front array of speakers are maybe 7 feet tall and the screen is like 20 feet tall. In the stadium seating venues, the back row is at least 15 feet high. Now I know many theaters will use another array along the top of the screen, but these speakers are getting a different signal (i think it's called "front effects"). But when you're sitting in there before the movie and they got music playing, the music is usually only coming out of the center channel or the left and right channels that are sitting on the floor. Even then, it sounds like it comes from the middle of the screen.

The use of a horizontal baffle (like the Reference and Synergy lines) is actually considered to be a compromise for making it more aesthetic when putting the center channel above the TV. To minimize off axis lobing, they created the tapered array crossover. The 3 way design of a forte cannot take advantage of such a crossover.

How is your room going to be laid out? A screen that sits only 36" off the floor seems a bit low if you're going to have two rows of seating (unless of course your second row is raised much higher).

The way I see it is why make things more complicated when a simpler method will provide competitive results?

[rplace]

Strabo, right now I am not interested in taking apart the Fortes, they have great sentimental value as I got them to replace my KG4s and have been in love with them since 92 or so. That said I would not be apposed to ripping up a different pair of Fortes to achieve the right sound. Probably not going to happen soon with all the other stuff I have going on in the HT. Interesting idea though. Guess that is what prompted my initial question about putting one forte above and one below. Would it be practical or even possible to mount one below upright and the second above and only have top one with high and mids working? If it were is there some sort of reversible process to remove the low end from one speaker something as simple as disconnecting wires from cross over to driver? I dont know much about the inner workings of speakers so any advice greatly appreciated.

DrWho, I am a big fan of simpler. I never gave it any though but you are right music sounds as big as the band in my minds eye when listening to 40 inch tall speakers. Also you are right about sound at a commercial theater sounding like it is centered. I would consider raising my mains to center the horns mid screen, but then I thought I would in turn need to angel them down. This seemed to be more work then the payoff for Right/Left. I guess my thought process (flawed it might be) was that with the center it was more important to anchor the voice in the center of the screen. Thus my post last week about perforated screens. Bottom line is I want to get the best sound possible given my equipment and room. Right now I can build for speaker behind screen or two sets of centers above and below or what ever else makes sense. So far it is looking like Chorus/Forte/Chorus all upright on the floor is the winner. But I am still open to suggestions.

As to screen height, I was told a general rule was 30 inches off the floor. What do the rest of you projector people do with roughly 60 to 120 inch diagonal screens? Room will be just under 8. So 96 inches minus 45 for the screen (45X 80) gives me less then 51 to play with. Lets call it 50. Subtract another 36 for a future stage (I like this look but with side speakers showing http://da-litehometheater.com) that will house sub and Forte and I have 14 inches from top of screen to ceiling. Should I raise it up more then 36? Room is roughly 13 wide (screen wall) and 16 deep. I am thinking 2 rows of 3 seats with slight rise for second row. Again, open to any suggestions out there.

Thanks, Rich

[DrWho]

I just wanted to comment that I have never heard a center channel speaker centered in the very middle behind the screen. My comments were solely based on other experiences of mine that show our ears to be very undirectional in the vertical plane. I've also done a little research studying how the ear works and all the functions of the different parts. It's a most interesting topic (or at least I think so)

As far as your screen height goes, just do the geometry in your room. Here's a crewd picture of the line of site that you'll have to calculate:

You'll have to measure the distance of the front row to the front wall, the distance from the back row to the front wall, the tallest height of a listener in the front row and the shortest height of a listener in the back row. Once you got all that, it's just a basic triangle. Then you'll have to choose an optimum height for the bottom of the screen in relation to the height of the floor in the back row.

You might want to read this thread:

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=55728&sessionID={56F32F83-1254-498E-A14C-04B7CCCE0557}

There's a few more links and a pdf document that talks about all this...oh and some discussion from other board members as well

[radiob]

try pulling, dont tow.

[dougdrake]

WRT to screen height, ideally you would want the viewer's eyes to be about 1/3 up from the bottom of the screen. A screen that is 48" high, for example, would have the viewer's eyes at 16" from the bottom of the screen. Normal seated eye height is about 40" (?), so in this example the bottom of the screen would be 24" from the floor.

If that's too low for getting a speaker under, consider putting the seating area on a platform to raise the viewer's eyes. Also, it's just a guideline