..how many subs you are using ?

[vacs2000]

Sorry for the simplicity of my question

but with the La Scalas you use only one sub woofer no ??

There is no physical meaning to have one per channel

if my recollection from acoustics is right.

Or I am missing something ?!!

[HornEd]

Vacs2000, whatever the Klipsch speaker, a good subwoofer or set of subwoofers should have the responsibility of extending the bottom range somewhere into the first two octaves. As has been posted frequently on this board, Dolby Laboratories established a MINIMUM "Reference Level" for bass (with all speakers set to SMALL) of 121dB in all "sweetspot" listening positions. The number of subwoofers one needs is based on how much low bass is required for a particular listening room's acoustics.

Usually, the owners of fine speakers, such as LaScalas or the new Ref "7"... or even us old Legend and Cornwall reprobates have difficulty with the thought of setting our speakers to SMALL. However, an adequate subwoofer system should be able to handle the music and HT chores on the bottom end better than the full-range speakers can. The long waves of low bass just require special handling... and even the mighty K-horn, as low as it can go, would have to be a whole lot bigger to handle first octave duties. Of course, the K-horn owner could just blow off any sound too low for his horns... because there are not near as many low notes... but those that are there are awesome indeed!

Another problem set are standing waves and speakers canceling each other's waves. The more speakers from separate locations putting out long low waves in one room... the higher the potential for problems. That is why savvy bass heads that recognize the need for two subwoofers will put them in the same corner... so that their waves will combine to reach toward that minimum reference level.

As I have said many times before, few systems reach that Dolby "Reference Level" and usually it is not an inexpensive proposition. That is why most audio sales personnel will stay away from "Reference Level" discussions because the odds are there subwoofers will not measure up... unless you have room for a herd of subwoofers in a single corner.

So, Vacs, having one sub per channel for frequencies under 80Hz (which should be non-directional to human ears) is only a way to ask for problems, increase expense, and have no benefit... unless, of course, one follows the acoustic rules for Big Mouth Bass that you can feel and hear. Remember also, that every room is a bit different due not only to its wall and ceiling angles, construction and surface materials... and of course anything that gets in the way or soaks up sounds.

A properly set up system should be transparent as to where the sub leaves off and the "full-range" speakers begin. Multiple subs do not make any lower sounds... but they make the low sounds they can produce louder. How much louder, adding a second subwoofer that is the same as the first may add as much as 6dB... that's right, it takes double the amp power for each 6dB increment in SPL (Sound Pressure Level... pretty much a fancy set of words to say volume).

On that note, I should recommend that anyone willing to spend thousands of dollars on their sound system should spend $35 on a Radio Shack analog SPL meter and set their system up the way it should be. I have yet to meet the person who can set up a truly great multi-speaker HT system up properly... and I have friends that can tune a multi-carb Ferrari by ear... and there are not many who can.

LaScalas are truly wonderful acoustic machines... and they deserve a proper "bottom-dweller" counterpart... or none at all. Yes, I am partial to horns... but a horn big enough to handle the first two octaves has not even proved practical for the nation's largest theaters.

There are a lot of subwoofers that can give out a BIG THUD... and some that can track the most intricate musical passages... but very few can do both at a volume (SPL) that rivals the real thing. Just about all of us on the Klipsch Forum are eager to hear what the final configuration of the new Klipsch subwoofer line due later this year.

Of course, there is a lot more to it... and I guess I ought to leave some space for the rest of the story. You know, what I have just said has been said many times before... but the life of a single post is very short... and the thirst for this knowledge seems to be a continual stream.

So, a good way to learn more from this post is to browse old posts before they slip into Klipsch Forum oblivion... with just the answer you were seeking. Look for posts from BobG, PhilH, or JimG, they work for Klipsch but they do try to give you the straight scoop. HornEd

------------------

"Where Legends Live! Klipsch Powered HT"

FOREGROUND SOUND STAGE:

KLF 30 Center, KLF 30 Mains, KLF 10 Front Effects

BACKGROUND SOUND STAGE:

KLF 30 L&R Side/Surrounds, KLF 30 Rear Effects

LARGE MOUTH BASS:

Twin SVS CS-Ultra sub with Samson Megawatt Amp

SPEAKER SUPPORT SYSTEMS:

Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65", Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

and such... Tweakin' On!

2-Channel Music Respite Room ala Cornwall under construction...

[jdm56]

I just want to make one point in favor of multiple subs at different locations: By placing, say, two subs in disimilar locations, you could achieve smoother overall bass response than might be possible if the two subs were stacked in the same place. This is because, with careful set-up you could have the two subs exciting different room modes. Where one location might be week at 50hz and strong at 30, the other sub in a different location could be just the opposite. In this manner, multiple subs could compliment each other.

...or something like that.

------------------

JDMcCall

[HornEd]

Indeed, James D. McCall, one can optimize a room for its bass by using multiple subs. And, in the case of less than perfect subs, multiple subs can also improve the perception of directional bass. As some may recall, prior to acquiring the Twin SVS CS-Ultras, I used five strategically placed Klipsch subwoofers (2 KSW-15's (front array) and 3 KSW-12's (rear array) used in conjunction with the 10 12" woofers in 5 KLF 30's (No sub was used for the KLF C-7 center)... with all the bass traps, surface texture adjustments, minute placement shifts, etc. optimizing "McCalls" for. After uncounted hours of repetitious tweaking and tedious SPL measuring, I had an all Klipsch system of which I could be proud... and certainly impressed the locals who enjoyed many a Blockbuster DVD here.

But then, some guy named Tom Vodhanel replied to my subwoofer post in a convincing way that I try a Velodyne 18" HGS to replace the five subwoofers as an experiment. So I did blissfully ignorant of what this TV guy did for a living. Then, a Klipsch Forum member posted a reply that clued me in to the fact that this guy was really the "V" in SV Subwoofers.

I checked out the SVS web site and was curious enough to enter into a series of technically oriented subwoofer emails... and Tom made me an offer I couldn't refuse. Try the best he's ever made (Twin SVS CS-Ultras with Samson 1,000 watt amp and 351 EQ) and if I they didn't measure up to my standards, he'd give my money back (except for return shipping... it's the same deal they make to everyone). So, that's how I reached and exceeded Dolby Reference Level Bass at every key listening position... a stack of raw greenbacks for smooth, quick and true Big Mouth Bass.

So, by putting my money where his mouth was, I found a level of pure bass enjoyment that made either my Legends HT system or my Cornwall Music system shine like they never had before. And, NO Tom, I do not want my money back... I want another SVS system for my downstairs Music/Work Room.

Any of my former employees or clients will tell you that it is not easy to get me to "wax ecstatic" about anything that I have not tested to a fair thee well. And, by no means am I saying that you have to have an SVS system to reach and exceed the Dolby Reference Level of 121dB. I have great hopes for the new line of Klipsch subs that grows out of my decades of satisfaction with PWK's "Heritage", etc. And Boa will be quick to note (and I concur) that the big Velo is no slouch... and RWMIN will relate SVS has less expensive systems, and Seb will vouch for the PW 2200 certainly deserves its reputation for bringing a lot of bass pleasure for the buck. And, lets face it, most of what happens in sound... happens at frequencies above what any sub puts out.

But, whether you measure it by SPL's or by ears, there is a bass plateau that melts away all subwoofer "claims" in a bass reality that precious few have been able to enjoy... whatever level of Klipsch speaker they may own. HornEd

[DLUngurait]

I agree w/ all the above info but...I wonder if the question was asking something...well...more simple?

If we are talking STEREO: Do you NEED to feed left channel and right channel to separate subs?...NO!...both left and right can be sent to a single sub because low frequencies are non-directional and therefore should not effect the stereo imaging.

I too own LaScalas...and they definately NEED the help of sub.

Good Luck

Dave

[boa12]

vac & dl, think that depends on the source & set-up. f.e., if you're using a stereo preamp line level or an a/v receiver w/ the speaker level connections, i'd think you'd want to send the main-R channel to 1 sub & the main-L channel to the other sub since you're getting no processing to sum them into a mono signal.

though depending on the processing w/ the a/v receiver,

this would probably only benefit in a direct mode w/

2-channel (stereo) source material.

on other hand if you're using an a/v receiver that internally sums to mono to the sub preout line level jack, you'd just Y or daisy chain to each sub, unless of course you're lucky enough to have 2 sub preout jacks.

another thing. i can't recall which frequency dolby uses for that 121 db bass/lfe ref level. in one review i saw they measured the peak output of my velo hgs-18 at 123db at 31.5HZ & a flat response down to 12.5hz.

nothing else significant though.

would imagine that 121db is probably at 20 or 25hz though, which my velo won't do.

ed, tv, anyone know that freq level for 121db?

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z1 cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D 5-disk cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2100 digital cable box

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3, RC-3

Monster MCX Biwires

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975)

Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer

Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge

rock on!

[vacs2000]

Interesting all these opinions.

My system is a model Hi-Fi not A/V consisting

of a pair of Fisher 100 monoblocks ( EL37 Mullard PP)

a Fisher pre-amp and a CD+tuner.

Actually I am straggling to repair the two K-77 that are blown out ( figure it out after getting the speakers..am i stupid..).

Also these speakers are brand new and very little used ( just enough to blow them using DJ equip).

DO they have a brake-up time since I am not managing to get them sound ( ok in a 2-way style) nice yet.

My poor reference is a pair of old Bozak 3-way speakers

model 302-A (no no not the Grand Concert..)

I'll keep trying since the truth should be close enough.

[boa12]

vac, w/ a stereo preamp, i'd run line level from the preamp R out to a powered sub line in then from the sub's line out to the mblock in. same for the L to the other sub.

your subs' crossovers then control the low pass to the sub & above that goes on to the mblock & the lascala hooked to them.

guess for my ? above all i had to do was check out www.svsubwoofers.com

from their site:

"Furthermore, if you use bass management to reroute some bass from the main speakers to the subwoofer (say

you are using relatively small main speakers)...the headroom needs are increased to the 121dB range! That's

121dB/at the seats/down to 21-24hz. In a typical room...you'd need a pair of corner loaded high-end

subwoofers (typical examples costing well over $2,000 each) going full throttle to approach this. To be fair,

even one of our largest subs (the 16-46CS) cant provide such powerful bass, but a pair (as offered in our dual

sub and amp packages) can in most rooms. As stated earlier, not everyone wants or needs true movie theater

level realism, but for those that do want it, or for those few that already have it, youll be drawn into movies like

never before. Thats what to look for in a subwoofer system... realistic sound reproduction, no matter what

volume you prefer.

forget what my single velo hgs-18 does around 20-25hz(109-111db?), but know it's nowhere near 121db.

touche ed!

[boa12]

vac, looking back at your original ?, whether u go w/ 1

or 2 subs is of course up to u. 1 of those personal cost/benefit things.

sorry, i was thinking u getting 2 subs was a given

[RWMIN]

Horn and Boa are right on the money.

I just sold a Velodyne HGS 12 and replaced it with a Paradigm Pw2200. I was, at first going to buy the SVS CS Ultra. I have been longing for the Velodyne HGS 18" for a long time now and suddenly SVS came out with a sub with similar performance and for a price that I could afford. Anyway, as when I bought my Velodyne HGS 12" I let my wife influence my decision to by the lesser expensive sub then what I wanted. If I would have bought the Velodyne HGS 15-18 as originally planned, I would be done with subs(so I think). Anyway the Paradigm PW 2200 is a better HT sub then the HGS 12 but it does not go as deep as the HGS 12". I am pleased with the PW 2200 as I was with the Velodyne HGS 12 but I am sure that I need yet an even bigger, better sub. I have owned 2 Klipsch Lf 10's, 1 Velodyne HGS 12, 1 JBL D112 (D.O.A.), and now a PW 2200.

I got a great price on the PW 2200 from a local dealer so I jumped on it instead of buying the SVS CS Ultra. If you guys thought Seb was a bass freak, well just look at me. I MUST have more!!! I am pleased with the PW 2200 as I was W/ the Velodyne but I am by no means done. I have decided that no matter what, my next sub will be either a STRYKE 15", SVS CS Ultra, or my absolute favotite, VELODYNE HGS 18"(comes with a remote). I think that if you were to buy ANY of the three subs I have listed that you would own your one and only sub for years to come.

If I could start over, I would do it with only one sub and it would be 1 of the 3 mentioned above because dual subs just don't (won't) do it for me.

Sorry REL owners and lovers but I know nothing about them other then their great praise here on the board.

[boa12]

rwmin, i think u made the right decision. as i've found & the velo tech/pr guy proclaims, the only real hgs match for all the bigger klipsch is the 18. reason is the klipsch are so loud.

finally got everything fixed & set up. the 18 now is about 6 ft in from the optimal front corner (best i could do spacewise). w/ pink noise i set it to put out 90db on the low reading of the meter w/ the other speaks at 85db. receiver sub/lfe settings @ 0 gain & sub output knob is a hair above 3.

u already know how musical the hgs can be. i set all speakers to small & connect using sub out line level. that lets the 18 pick up where the marantz cuts out the klf-30 at 80hz. i thought that would be too high for the 18, but it more than picks up for them, like on that kick drum. the real impact is coming from the hgs. i mean it sounds & feels like somebody's holding the kickdrum right up against your chest & banging away.

on HT, it may only give u another 4-5db @ 20hz than the hgs-15 (traded that in for the 18), but that makes the huge dif down there on the LFE. i mean i can't really hear below 20hz, but that higher output down there & that flat extension down to 12.5hz i can certainly feel.

not only puts that floor underneath the audible higher bass, but it shakes, rattles & rolls that floor

i'm set w/ this sub w/ this system. i got the velo hgs-15 before i'd ever heard of svs, then had to stick w/ that dealer for a trade for the 18. but at $2250-3000 it certainly isn't cheap.

i really need to listen to an svs when i go looking for another sub for the other/another system though. from everything i've heard & read they seem more like the klipsch of subs. we'll see on those rsw.

[Seb]

Hey, RWMIN, the only reason I don't have a couple of SVS Ultras in the corner of my room plus maybe some other subs scattered all around is only because of budget limitations, not because I'm notenough of a bass freak!

Gotta buy that motorcycle first! I have to resist temptation...

I figure I'll only have to work a couple more months for that, maybe till the next summer, then all my money is going to MONSTER BASS!!! and speakers.

Gettin' tired of my Sonys, and I see the cost price of the good Klipsch at my store... it's hard. very hard.

------------------

'cuz not a lot of people have ever said

"Pump up the treble!"

[Seb]

how about a La Scala for 2250 CAN or some KLF30s for 1450??

that's all canadian before taxes... sweet!

[RWMIN]

Boa

The HGS 18" is the best in my book. I know of nothing in that price range ($3000) that can outperform it. The SVS CS Ultra is priced right making it my "best buy" between the two but I think the Velodyne is still king of the hill and it will be that way until someone can diliver "ultra clean", ultra loud 16 hz bass and a remote. Of course owning an HGS may have influenced me.

I know TWO SVS CS Ultras would cost about the same (or less) and they would best the HGS above 20 HZ. It's just not the same having two to do it though. Yet, if someone did need that kind of output, I could never justify the price gap between TWO HGS 18's and TWO SVS CS Ultra's.

Until I am "blown away" (like HornEd w/CS Ultras) I will be looking for more then I have w/my PW 2200 and more then what I had w/LF 10's and from my Velodyne HGS 12.

[boa12]

rw, yea 2 hgs-18 would be great if price were no object

& for now i can justify just 1 caus i have no more space couldn't even stack 'em because mine's in an enclosure right underneath a shelf, cable box, etc.

but the price can only go down from here & maybe someday i'll have a bigger room. but think i'll try an svs for sys #2 probably sooner than later.

[TheEAR]

I see most here talk about Paradigm,SVS,Velodyne.All fine subs,I have the Revel B15 and Aerial Acoustics SW12 and all I can say these are on par with even the Ultras!

I heard the Ultra in the store,a customer purchased his Ultras and wanted to hear how they integrated with a pair of Dynaudio Contour speakers.I dont need to tell you the match was perfect,bass was defined and clean.Very nice

Same with the Revel and Aerial they both add only the sub bass(in my case cut at 40Hz)to the Contour 3.3's.

The bass never booms,its defined and deep.Very nice match with the very fast bass of the Contour 3.3.

One good sub should be all you need,unless the speakers are in a larger room and will be pushed.Then two Ultras or nah make that one Revel B15 will be all a sane person may need.

I am insane this is why I need an army of subs.I like my bass defined and with power down to a solid 20Hz.

TheEAR(s) Now theears