jdm56 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 ...in my search for a giant killer pair of small subs, I keep seeing all these 12" JBL and Infinitys on ebay, for around $250 each. Dumb question time: Why are they so cheap, and what, if anything is wrong with them? Would a pair be good, mated with NON-high sensitivity speakers? (B&W 703's) To me, they APPEAR to be one heckuva value. What am I missing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 You get what you pay for. When it comes to mass market brands it becomes necessary to employ large production and marketing budgets and facilities to meet the demand for filling all of the Best Buys and Circuit Cities with their products. In order to meet their bottom line and (at the same time)make the price viable they need to utilize less than optimal construction materials and processes. The result is a mediocre product for (sometimes) a premium price. The lower the price goes, you can be guaranteed the lesser the quality your product will need to be. For example, it would cost more to do the following but would not appear asthetically different...all things equal: -reinforce enclosure with internal bracing and 1 inch thick walls -use higher quality, more durable driver -use marketing budget for accoustic research instead -more powerful, higher quality amplifier (even at same wattage ratings) These are qualities not found in subs from department stores. In addition, these bigger names can use their name recognition to justify a higher price. This is just a general discussion regarding the big names in consumer retail. I can't speak of any specific models you're referring to unless you give details. Or were you hinting at something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted December 17, 2004 Author Share Posted December 17, 2004 The two specific subs in question are the Infinity PS-12 and the JBL 250EP. They are both current models and are available at "mass-market" retailers in the $450-$500 range. They both use a 12" driver. The Infinity's amp is rated 300W continuous -- I'm unsure of the JBL's power rating but it is comparable. Enclosures appear to be similar, in that both subs weigh in at around 45 pounds. (Since both Infinity and JBL are owned by Harmon, there may be MANY similarities in the designs.) Both are appearing on various web sites and ebay stores in the $250-$325 range. Very tempting! My concern is this: My main stereo pair of speakers are very high quality, and I don't want to just muddy up the sound by adding a pair of poor sounding subs. And since I have not been able to find any "professional" reviews of these subs, I'm left wondering if they would sound bad, or if they just wouldn't go as loud or as low as more expensive subs might. In other words, do the specs tell the story? If kept within their linear operating range, would they sound as good as more expensive subs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS Posted December 18, 2004 Share Posted December 18, 2004 ---------------- On 12/17/2004 11:15:09 PM jdm56 wrote: The two specific subs in question are the Infinity PS-12 and the JBL 250EP. They are both current models and are available at "mass-market" retailers in the $450-$500 range. They both use a 12" driver. The Infinity's amp is rated 300W continuous -- I'm unsure of the JBL's power rating but it is comparable. Enclosures appear to be similar, in that both subs weigh in at around 45 pounds. (Since both Infinity and JBL are owned by Harmon, there may be MANY similarities in the designs.) Both are appearing on various web sites and ebay stores in the $250-$325 range. Very tempting! My concern is this: My main stereo pair of speakers are very high quality, and I don't want to just muddy up the sound by adding a pair of poor sounding subs. And since I have not been able to find any "professional" reviews of these subs, I'm left wondering if they would sound bad, or if they just wouldn't go as loud or as low as more expensive subs might. In other words, do the specs tell the story? If kept within their linear operating range, would they sound as good as more expensive subs? ---------------- Do the specs tell the story? Specs really mean quite little. One thing that should catch your attention is the fact that is weighs only 45 lbs. The quality in construction materials (woofer and enclosure) is often fortold by the weight. The performance data will tell the story. Would they sound as good as more expensive subs? No. I wouldn't add one of these if your existing system is of good quality. More expensive subs (and same priced, non-mass-marketed ones for that matter) would sound quite a bit better. It all depends on your budget, but you can get vastly better products for the same amount of money as above. I'm guessing the response is not very flat, the extension (specs admitted) isn't excellent, and output is limited (all subjectively, that is). Don't get me wrong, it's not a BAD product as the rest of the world is concerned. It's just not nearly the best you can get for that price. If you're going to pay $650 for a pair of small subs... (here comes the advice). And this is completely personal, but it's a darn fact that SVS is just about the very best bang for your buck in all of subwooferdom (minus do-it-yourself, of course). I researched it for nearly a year before buying. Believe me...I've looked. I would take a look at what they can offer for $650 and under (your assumed budget for 2 of the abovementioned). The PB12isd is flat to under 20 Hz. All of the pci models are within that budget. A little bump up in the budget and the plus woofer will shine even more. If you're looking for "killer" like you said in your first post, then I would call SVS's killers. The aforementioned jbl and infinities? Maybe a couple of "petty larsonies" p.s. And klipsch subs are good, too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted December 18, 2004 Author Share Posted December 18, 2004 Hey, thanks for the advice. I do appreciate it. I am still scouring ebay and audiogon for deals. It seems very few B&W subs ever come up for sale. Most that do are pretty old, I think. You are probably right about the relative quality of cheap versus not-so-cheap subs. It's just that the prices are very tempting on those Infinity subs. I'd LIKE to think they would sound just as good as pricier subs from SVS and others, as long as I didn't push'em too hard. -Probably not the case, though. I don't know...I'll keep looking and stewing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scp53 Posted December 18, 2004 Share Posted December 18, 2004 consider drivers from dayton, blueprint(the ones that are left), adire, and bully. these are a few of many good subwoofer makers. more particularly the bully. from the reviews i v read its extremely accurate. VERY VERY low distortion and quick. i guess it can compete with $3000+ audiophile subs. just a thought scp53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted December 19, 2004 Author Share Posted December 19, 2004 Thanks. Who sells that stuff? Parts Express? Madisound? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scp53 Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 bully and dayton are sold at partsexpress.com adire you can by direct online from adireaudio.com. however their redoing that part of the site. not sure of other dealers right off hand. blueprint- their out of business but sites still have some stock. http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/subwoofer_drivers/blueprint/ as far as amps, parts express has great stuff for a good price scp53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted December 24, 2004 Share Posted December 24, 2004 I wanted to jump in here and say that I have owned a JBL 12 inch sub and heard an inexpensive Infinity sub. They both gave you a huge bang for the buck in sound. The JBL rocked and had a limiter on it that worked very well. I had it in a very large room and it would vibrate the walls when cranked up. I can honestly say to give them a try, I think you will be suprised. The ones I have heard did a fine job for the price ($300). I have since moved up to a mountain shaker, but I still miss that old JBL as it was easy to set up with my speaker system and rocked......Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted December 24, 2004 Share Posted December 24, 2004 The only giant killer pair of subs are two Sunfire Signature EQ subs.All these El Cheapo garbage with so called giant performance is pure hype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinipig523 Posted December 24, 2004 Share Posted December 24, 2004 I have tried the Infinity EntraTwo 12" (the version previous to the PS-12) and I can vouch that it is a pretty dang good sub. The ONLY thing it lacked was extension. The PS-12 should drop like a rock under 27-28hz. Otherwise, it is a very nice sub for the sub-300$ price range. The sub is hefty and is well built. My sub was about 50 pounds if I recall correctly. Also, the sub uses a pretty large port. I am pretty sure its about equivalent to SVS' 4" flared port that you find in the PCi series subwoofers. If you are thinking about saving some cash and going for a sub that hits the notes above 28hz, I wouldnt regret getting the Infinity. As for the JBL, I have not owned one so I cannot say. EDIT: You are looking for a pair. As long as you can control response and keep it flat, you are gold. On ebay, you can definitely score a pair of Infinities for about $450. It should be killer above 28hz. If you want something with more extension, look no further than something the likes of SVS' PB10 for 425$ plus shipping. However, dual Infinities *should* outgun the PB10 in sheer spl above 30hz - it shouldnt be a problem. The question is, are you willing to sacrifice extension and perhaps an overall flat response for spl? I am hinting at the fact that you would probably need a Berringer eq to flatline the Infinities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted December 24, 2004 Author Share Posted December 24, 2004 Spkrdctr, Pinipig523 and all: Thanks a lot for the responses. The Infinity PS-12 is available on ebay for around $300 delivered. It weighs 45 pounds, has a 300W amp and a twelve inch MMD driver. I don't know what the magnet weight is, or how think the cabinet walls are, but at 45 pounds, considering the fairly modest dimensions, it appears to be comparable to a lot of more expensive subs, in the build quality department. Extension to below 30Hz is fine for me, because they will be used in what is primarily a music rig. The lowest note on a 4-string electric bass is just around 40Hz, and I have like, two organ recordings, so what's the point fretting over response below 30Hz? My skeptical side keeps wondering why there are so many of those inexpensive JBL and Infinity subs on ebay? I mean, they are current models. Crutchfield sells the Infinity PS-12 for $450! That little voice in my head keeps saying, "What's wrong with'em??" I know they are covered in vinyl, but dang, my fairly high-buck B&W's are real wood (black ash), but I don't know as I could tell one way or the other just by looking. In fact, the Infinitys would match up real well with my B&W's, looks-wise. Gettin' mighty tempted! Hey there, Pinipig, how do ya' like those LSi Polks? I would have liked to heard a pair of them before I bought the 703's. They are sure getting some good write-ups! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinipig523 Posted December 24, 2004 Share Posted December 24, 2004 If I recall correctly, the vinyl on my infinity sub was very nice. I had a pair of axiom speakers and I wish the black oak vinyl on the axioms were as nice as the vinyl on my infinity sub. It has ridges, not just imprints of a different color.... the vinyl resembles wood as best as vinyl can, IMO. I bought mine off of circuit city right before they introduced the new PS12. Mine was on sale for 280.00+tax.... not bad! That sub lasted me for quite some time, until I got my SVS. The infinity sub is with my friend now and he likes it alot. For $300, you cant go wrong with the infinity sub. The only other sub that *might* give it trouble are the STF-2 for 349 + shipping. I dont know which is better above 30hz but I do know the STF extends to about 25hz. Maybe you should try an infinity and see how it fares. If the previous 12" entratwo infinity sub is any indication of the ps12, you should be in for a real treat. See if you can find it for about 260 shipped - try emailing the ebay seller and haggle it down prior to sale.... that's what I do and it works at times. Regarding the LSi9s and the LSi7s, I enjoy them very much! These speakers are going to be my last and final speakers for my computer - upgrading every time something catches my fancy is getting to be too expensive in hindsight. I really feel that these speakers are one of the better ones for my ear at this price range. I thought about going klipsch RB, but after having the two side by side, the klipsch construction quality turned me off - no comparison at all. The sound coming out of the klipsch rb25 were nice, but I still preferred the LSi9 by a margin. The LSi's vifa tweeter is truly a marvel at almost any volume on the LSi9 (on the LSi7, it seems to be less controlled)... the star of the show definitely! The LSi9 deliver more than enough bass for a bookshelf (extension) and I find myself listening to music without the SVS sub with perfect content! Midrange from the LSi9 are marvelous (less so on the LSi7) but this may be its only weakness... the midrange may not be as pronounced as a speaker with a dedicated midrange driver (such as the Energy Veritas or the Rocket 850s or the upcoming Klipsch Prestige). Overall though, I find the LSi (especially the 9s) to be an excellent speaker. For my use as nearfield computer speakers - I cant do much better IMO. However, if I had the luxury to buy new speakers, I would be content to buy a pair of the upcoming Onix Strata Minis or the Martin Logan Mosaic (or Montage) speakers. There's always something to aim for... . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rdmarsiii Posted December 24, 2004 Share Posted December 24, 2004 I'm glad you like your polks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InnovaZero Posted December 25, 2004 Share Posted December 25, 2004 ---------------- On 12/24/2004 11:56:03 AM TheEAR wrote: The only giant killer pair of subs are two Sunfire Signature EQ subs. ---------------- This is a goal of mine in the future, to buy another so I have two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InnovaZero Posted December 25, 2004 Share Posted December 25, 2004 Oh and reguarding Crutchfield, don't even look at them. While they are a very reputiable company, they are pretty overpriced on a lot of their items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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