BillH2121 Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 My continuing saga re how to ease into the world of tubes continues.... If I was able to find a nice tube amp for around $500, I could keep my Mc2125 and C-26 (a little insurance for myself - with a more expensive setup I have to sell my Mac gear). Would the use of my C-26 with the tubes destroy the positive effect I hoped to obtain over the 2125? Is getting a less expensive amp in this price range also going to diminish any positive effect or are there amps in that range that will provide the upgrade I'm seeking? Or, should I just say to hell with it and sell the Mac stuff and get some integated or separates set up $1600=$1700. I'm sorry to keep bugging everyone on the Board about this, but I really am reticent about letting the Mac stuff go. However, the lure of the tubes is strong and getting s-t-r-o-n-g-e-r. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 Bill, Have you seen this history of the C26: http://www.roger-russell.com/c26pg.htm The thing is, people have different audio likes and dislikes. There are people who detest the sound of McIntosh, and there are people who swear it is the best audio equipment, period. What if you sell your stuff and don't like your new gear as much? You really should figure out a way to audition and hear for yourself first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 I would definately keep the McIntosh gear (I do miss my SS Mac amps), and set aside a little dough for a future tube purchase. Maybe try an inexpensive tube amp with your Mac pre, or buy an integrated tube amp and bypass your preamp while driving your Klipsch. But keep the McIntosh for another spare bedroom system, etc. You can have your cake and eat it too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted January 16, 2005 Author Share Posted January 16, 2005 You guys have hit on my delimma - I am intrigued by the many posts that rave about how Klipsch speakers sound with tubes and because I don't have the opportunity to actually hear a tube set up with the Klipsch speakers, I am unsure how much better it might sound. And then when I consider that I have to get a less expensive tube amp if I am going to keep the Mac stuff, I wonder if I will get a real representation of "tubedom" with cheaper gear. I think that I favor sound over gear. but I have to admit I love the way the Mac stuff looks and the way it sounds as you click the knobs to turn it on. Further, it is difficult to "deprogram" my mind set that Mac represents the finest in audio (I realize now that probably that's not the case and I surely recognize that my set up does not come close to representing the finest of McIntosh). That said, I think intuitively I know that the C-26 is not a great match with tube equipment. But if someone thinks differently, I would like to hear it. Does anyone think that a $500 integrated tube amp or amp with the C-26 will blow away my 2125 and, if so, what tube amp would that be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 Mark makes sense (and he should know). You already love the sound of your SS Mac components with your Klipsch (I know I did), so there's no reason to dump it IMO. You did mention a $1700 budget allocated towards tube gear, and there are decent integrated tube amps in that price range...hopefully other more experienced bottleheads here will recommend a decent tube integrated amp that will make your Klipsch sing as sweetly as your Mac gear does now! FWIW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 Just a thought...I wonder how a classic McIntosh tube amp (MC225 or MC240 for instance) would sound with your C26? I've heard more about using tube preamps with SS amps, but not the other way around. Maybe you could consider that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 There are people who dont like Macs with big ole horns? I dont agree with Mark, who has a vested interest in new pre-amplifiers at the $2k mark. I do not think a REFURBISHED PAS3 and ST-70 is pretty mundane sounding stuff. I have the pre-amplifier and owned the Dynaco ST70s with my super-sensitive walnut-oiled Cornwall 1s, with their B2 crossovers. I remember music with them being pretty exciting. I think Mac has earned the rep, but keep the stuff until you decide, by the way, you can change your mind after weeks of listening Maybe you can find an audio club or nit, that will let you listen to their tubes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 ---------------- On 1/16/2005 7:59:45 PM mdeneen wrote: "Does anyone think that a $500 integrated tube amp or amp with the C-26 will blow away my 2125." ============ I doubt it. I think you have to put some "scale" into the tube gear analysis. A $500 tube rig may sound good, and it may sound better than an Adcom/Hafler/NAD/Yamaha HiFi set, but you are not in the serious zone of great sounding tube gear at $500. Even a 50 year old PAS3 and ST-70 would set you back $1,000, and that's pretty mundane sounding stuff. Barring you stumbling into a $50 Marantz amplifier, you will be getting some compromised gear for $500, IMO. I know everyone would have a different opinion here of course, but as a SWAG, I'd say $2,000 is where really fine tube sound begins. And obviously there's the new vs. used and so on. You won't find (usually) that Mac "feel" with budget tube gear. You're going to be looking at $10Gs to get that same equivelent construction in tubes. mdeneen P.S. I second the notion that you should LISTEN to something borrowed or whatever BEFORE dumping your Mac gear. I sense a great attachment to the feel/look/pride/brand. Nothing wrong with that. ---------------- ---------------- On 1/16/2005 8:36:40 PM Colin wrote: There are people who dont like Macs with big ole horns? I dont agree with Mark, who has a vested interest in new pre-amplifiers at the $2k mark. I do not think a REFURBISHED PAS3 and ST-70 is pretty mundane sounding stuff. I have the pre-amplifier and owned the Dynaco ST70s with my super-sensitive walnut-oiled Cornwall 1s, with their B2 crossovers. I remember music with them being pretty exciting. I think Mac has earned the rep, but keep the stuff until you decide, by the way, you can change your mind after weeks of listening Maybe you can find an audio club or nit, that will let you listen to their tubes. ---------------- Not intending to begin a flame war here, but I disagree with your take on this. I don't believe Mark inferred any specific reference to a $2000 preamp. Nor do I belive there was any mention at all of his own products. I think Mark was sincerely trying to help and offer an honest and well educated opinion to him. No more, no less. I certainly didn't think he was trying to push one of his preamps on him. I simply understood Mark to imply that a system in the $2000 range, be it an integrated, seperates, tube player with gain control, preamp, etc. would be expected to out preform $500 worth of the same type of gear. Sure there are the exceptions as with most things in life. I have heard the ST-70 and while it does sound nice, there is no way that is compares to some of the more expensive tube set ups. I am sure most here would agree that a pair of stock MC-30's would likely sound better than a stock ST-70 using the same preamp? Maybe I am way off base here, but that's my two cents. And please keep in mind this is only MHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtaylor Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 Not intending to begin a flame war here, but I disagree with your take on this. I don't believe Mark inferred any specific reference to a $2000 preamp. Nor do I belive there was any mention at all of his own products. I think Mark was sincerely trying to help and offer an honest and well educated opinion to him. No more, no less. I certainly didn't think he was trying to push one of his preamps on him. I simply understood Mark to imply that a system in the $2000 range, be it an integrated, seperates, tube player with gain control, preamp, etc. would be expected to out preform $500 worth of the same type of gear. Sure there are the exceptions as with most things in life. I have heard the ST-70 and while it does sound nice, there is no way that is compares to some of the more expensive tube set ups. I am sure most here would agree that a pair of stock MC-30's would likely sound better than a stock ST-70 using the same preamp? Maybe I am way off base here, but that's my two cents. And please keep in mind this is only MHO. ---------------- I second the emotion! Only because I'm not sure how to spell concur! Sorry Aretha, Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted January 16, 2005 Author Share Posted January 16, 2005 I certainly haven't felt any pressure from anyone on the Board and I gladly accept their opinion for what it is - hopefully an attempt to help who one is not so knowledgeable within the confines of each person's beliefs/prejudices/biases/likes/dislikes (am I being to naive?). And of course $2000 worth of tube gear is going to sound better, in most instances, than $500 worth of gear)same for SS in most cases). BUT, the question is - would $1500-$1600 worth of tube gear sound so much better than my present Mac set up so as to justify selling my equipment to finance new tube stuff? If I am ever convinved of such, then I will proceed without regret but I would sure hate to get rid of the stuff I have only to wonder if the new tube stuff is really that much better - therein lies the delimma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted January 16, 2005 Author Share Posted January 16, 2005 I certainly haven't felt any pressure from anyone on the Board and I gladly accept their opinion for what it is - hopefully an attempt to help who one is not so knowledgeable within the confines of each person's beliefs/prejudices/biases/likes/dislikes (am I being too naive?). And of course $2000 worth of tube gear is going to sound better, in most instances, than $500 worth of gear)same for SS in most cases). BUT, the question is - would $1500-$1600 worth of tube gear sound so much better than my present Mac set up so as to justify selling my equipment to finance new tube stuff? If I am ever convinved of such, then I will proceed without regret but I would sure hate to get rid of the stuff I have only to wonder if the new tube stuff is really that much better - therein lies the delimma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted January 16, 2005 Author Share Posted January 16, 2005 sorry for the double post - having some technical difficulty at this end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 ---------------- On 1/16/2005 11:03:50 PM BillH2121 wrote: I certainly haven't felt any pressure from anyone on the Board and I gladly accept their opinion for what it is - hopefully an attempt to help who one is not so knowledgeable within the confines of each person's beliefs/prejudices/biases/likes/dislikes (am I being too naive?). And of course $2000 worth of tube gear is going to sound better, in most instances, than $500 worth of gear)same for SS in most cases). BUT, the question is - would $1500-$1600 worth of tube gear sound so much better than my present Mac set up so as to justify selling my equipment to finance new tube stuff? If I am ever convinved of such, then I will proceed without regret but I would sure hate to get rid of the stuff I have only to wonder if the new tube stuff is really that much better - therein lies the delimma. ---------------- Well, why take a chance and possibly regret it? Why not keep your Mac gear and save up for some nice tube gear? Then you have the best of both worlds. If you decide you like the tube gear better you can always sell the Mac gear. It just keeps going up pricewise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 While holding on to your McIntosh stuff, one alternative might be an integrated stereo tube amplifier -- with volume control. Depending upon the output voltage and impedance of your primary source (mine is a CD player), compared to the input sensitivity and impedance of the amplifier you choose, it can be possible to very easily get by without another gain stage between the CDP and amp. Ironically, most active preamps are actually used to attenuate the source signal, and serve more as an impedance buffer/matching component between the source and amplifiers. In fact, most CD players have a strong enough output voltage to drive many if not most tube amplifiers well into the clipping range. The reason for this, is that high sensitivity and input impedances are often associated with tube audio circuitry. For example, my amplifiers only need about a single volt input for maximum output. This fact, coupled with an input impedance of 100K ohms, means that the CD player alone is able to readily supply what's needed. However, because of the fact that most CD players have output impedances that are higher than most line level preamplifiers, it's important to have the integrated amp and CD player close together so that interconnect cables are kept as short as possible. The ICs I made for my latest amp project -- which is essentially a power amp with a volume control and source switching included in the same chassis -- are 18 inches long. I actually first tried the amp with cables of several feet, and couldn't detect any roll-off at either frequency extreme. I think Mark and others have offered some great advice, but please let me submit the possibility that it's possible to find very good sounding equipment under even the $1,000 mark. As Mark also said, opinions will differ on this, and I am speaking from my experience, only. On the very important impedance relationship issue, many tube components are more efficient and sensitive than even what I am using, where it might be possible, for example, especially in the case of certain vintage tube amps with which I'm familiar, where an output level 25 watts or more can be obtained from an input of only .5 volts. In that case, if there is a way to control volume on the amplifier (or if a 'passive' preamp is used), a CD player alone with the amplifier would be more than enough. In fact, a high-gain preamp might actually overload the input stage of the amplifier, causing distortion, noise, and other nasty-sounding things! Have fun and good luck! Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted January 17, 2005 Author Share Posted January 17, 2005 MY DECISION - After much thought and consideration of the advice and recommendations of the good people on this Board who sought to help me with this delimma, I have decided to keep my Mac gear and make the purchase of tubes a future goal. First, I do not think it is a good idea to purchase a tube amp in the $500-$600 range - I don't think I would get a good representation of tubes at that price range. I took my 2125 to the service tech today to have it checked to make sure it is performing to the level it is capable. I also took a list of the mods that djk mentioned in a related thread to see what the engineers thought and what the cost would be. I then plan to have Dean work his magic with the crossovers on the RF-7s in the next couple months. I think I will keep the Mac stuff and save to purchase a decent tube amp (and preamp if needed)and hopefully be able to make that purchase in approx a year or so. I decided I can't part with a friend of 30 years even if its not the best piece of audio equipment there is. Hopefully, with the amp working at its best and the crossover work by Dean, I can have a year or two of enjoyable litening on my RF-7s before the time comes to consider something new. Many thanks to those who took the time to respond to my questions and I'm sure I'll have more in the near future. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtaylor Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Bill, If you haven't had your C-26 looked at for awhile maybe you should think about taking it in to your tech's and have them clean that up also. I don't believe that you could improve what you have by any appreciable margin unless you spend alot of money and maybe not then. Your components would be the envy of some, they're built like tanks and in my opinion sound great. Thirty years and still going, that is great. Take care and have fun with them, Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dstrachan Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Bill, Hate to place doubt in your mind but... You could get into some decent tube gear on the used market within your budget and still get a taste of the "better" tube sound. Tube integrated amps that sold for $2k 3 or 4 years ago can be picked up for well less than half price. Go older and they can be even cheaper. I paid $500 for a Consonance Ella which is a kit integrated. The basic kit cost $650. It had $500 worth of tubes with it, many upgrades (caps etc) and was assembled. The parts alone cost around $1,200 and it is a very respected tube amp for a fraction of the cost of a decent new one or a used high end amp. Patience and perseverence and you can have your cake and eat it too! I ended up selling my SS stuff (Bryston and ARC) çause the tubes just sound soooo good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 You could get a descent refurbished vintage integrated tube amplifier in the $500 range that would give you a very good "taste of tubes" I bet there are at least 200 people on this forum that started there tube journey at this vintage price point and were instantly hooked. Many stayed right there and other ventured further up the tube food chain. I personally think its the best way for you to decide if tubes are up your alley. It's not hard to sell the integrated for near what you paid for it when you decide to move on. This way you get to keep your Mc gear and get to try tubes on the cheap. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Did the price go down to $500 on the Scott 233? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted January 18, 2005 Author Share Posted January 18, 2005 Craig and others - if, in a couple of months, I was able to find an integrated amp in the $500 range that would allow me to "dabble" in tubedom, I certainly wouldn't pass up that opportunity. However, with the money that I intend to spend on clean-up of my Mac stuff (I'm taking the C-26 in today to join the amp) and the crossover work by Dean, that purchase won't happen for a few months anyway. Craig, I plan to keep an eye on your site as well as others to, if nothing else, help educate myself on the market. If I see something on your site that looks promising, I will certainly contact you for info and advise. It's not that I have lost interest in tubes, its just that a purchase has to be deferred awhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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