jdm56 Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 When I had klipsch speakers, the center "phantom" image always seemed to be even with or a bit in front of the plane of the left and right speakers. Now, with the B&W's, the center image seems to be about three feet behind the plane of the speakers. Wha's up wit dat? My theory: The center image is usually dominated by midrange sounds - voice, lead instruments. If the midrange is pretty much equal in level to the rest of the spectrum, the center image SHOULD appear to be located the same distance from the sweet spot as the L&R images, which will place it a bit behind the plane of the two, because THAT is the point that is equa-distant from the listener!!! Klipsch speakers, on the other hand, often have an elevated midrange, which explains why they tend to push central images out there closer to, or even ahead of the plane of the front speakers. Geez, I'm a freakin' GENIUS!!! A legend in my own time! A man among men! SOMEBODY STOP ME!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 I think it has more to do with the reflections in your room...horns have a narrow dispersion pattern and thus there are less reflections reaching your ears. The reflections that do reach your ears are approaching at different angles from that of a direct radiator. Variations on speaker location can dramatically change the nature of the center image. However, I do agree that increasing the midrange is a trick used in the studio to help bring an instrument to the front of the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 time delay/ dispersion/ horn beaming .. all account for this .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 B&Ws are voiced with a mid bass bump centered at 100Hz, a extended slightly "hot" top end and a flat mellow mid-range. A coloration which is prefered by many. The bass and lower mids are able to expand beyond the width of the narrow box and reflect off objects to the sides and rear whereas in a Klipsch horn driver the mids are shaped and projected toward the listener by the horn. Many think that the latter sounds more like "live" performances. A properly set up Klipschorn system projects a soundstage that closely resembles a real stage of a live performance where you are seated near the front in the center. The musicians are standing across the stage with some in front of and/or to the left or right of the others with good rock or jazz recordings. Some classical enthusiasts think that the "stage", although broad, lacks some depth. The bassoons are seated with the flutes or something like that. One can't have every thing I guess. Choose your poison. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 I can't understand the meaning behind any answer given to this question, without first asking, "how do you have them set up?", EXCEPT DrWho's, and he is correct. B&Ws are super sensitive to PLACEMENT, PLACEMENT, PLACEMENT! I know, I've owned several pair and currently own the CDM-1 SE. That's why I am currently using Klipsch and a vintage pair of Apollos. I'm keeping the B&Ws safely in their box in my closet. Although they are a LOVELY sounding speaker, they are too idiosyncratic with regards to room placement and I have too small a space for them at present. The ones I have owned have seemed to need a lot of juice to get going as well. The Klipsch (and the Apollos) are "in your face" wherever I put them so I quit wasting alot of time trying to beat the laws of physics in a crummy room and listen to more music. Regards, Analogman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 ---------------- On 1/22/2005 1:03:11 PM bsafirebird1969 wrote: time delay/ dispersion/ horn beaming .. all account for this .. ---------------- Yes. Sorry I unintentionally excluded your response Analogman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 I always have linked speaker dispersion to liveness of sound and size of images, but not to center image depth specifically, but I suppose it may be related, too. My B&W's (703's) ARE a bit hot on top, but, at least in my room, there is no bass hump that is noticable or measurable. In fact, the bass range measures fairly flat (31-200Hz, +/-4 dB's relative to the 1kHz level). As for placement issues, yes these B&W's are sensitive to room placement, but at least I can put'em where they sound best. With the big horns, there were no options. And since the corners were not good for bass, and the room was too small to move them out from the corners, I was basically hosed. One factor, at least with regards to MY preferences: I NEVER liked "front row center" at concerts or movies anyway. Give me a nice centered mid-hall seat every time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 ---------------- On 1/22/2005 9:03:44 PM jdm56 wrote: I always have linked speaker dispersion to liveness of sound and size of images, but not to center image depth specifically, but I suppose it may be related, too. My B&W's (703's) ARE a bit hot on top, but, at least in my room, there is no bass hump that is noticable or measurable. In fact, the bass range measures fairly flat (31-200Hz, +/-4 dB's relative to the 1kHz level). As for placement issues, yes these B&W's are sensitive to room placement, but at least I can put'em where they sound best. With the big horns, there were no options. And since the corners were not good for bass, and the room was too small to move them out from the corners, I was basically hosed. One factor, at least with regards to MY preferences: I NEVER liked "front row center" at concerts or movies anyway. Give me a nice centered mid-hall seat every time! ---------------- The 703s are the current incarnation of the CDM-1. I can tell you that mine improved, DRAMATICALLY, after they got some hours on them. Run them out of phase with one another, face to face, with some pink and white noise for 24 hours a day, for a couple of days, and then see what you think, unless you are already satisfied that they are "broken in". I have found they work best out in the room, at least three feet, but ultimately determined by room size. Regards, Analogman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 I believe the 703 is the new version of the CDM-9, actually. Isn't the CDM-1 a small two-way? (now, the 705) My 703's are floor-standers; 1"tweeter / 6"fst mid / two 6 1/2" woofers. You know, it was a pair of black CDM-1's that first gave me the B&W bug. They are a fantastic speaker. The new version even got some kind of "speaker of the year" award, over across the pond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 You may very well be correct. Think about what I suggested, if it applies. As always, Analogman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Everything else aside, B&W definitely knows how to SELL speakers, as well as make them. Analogman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted January 23, 2005 Author Share Posted January 23, 2005 I've got my 703's out about 3' from the front wall and in over 5' from the sidewalls. I run'em full-range, plus I roll an Infinity Alpha 1200s sub in at 80Hz. It's located in the right-rear corner, behind the couch, which itself is out about 4' from the rear wall. B&W is one well-engineered, well-built speaker. They are like klipsch in that they tend to stick with lines for a long time. No change just for the sake of change. In fact, excluding klipsch' heritage speakers, B&W is probably even more conservative than klipsch, as far as speaker design and marketing. I would like to see what klipsch could do if they would bring out some new designs to compete in the price range of the B&W 800 series. Reference Premier??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 In addition to placement and how strong the midrange is and the standard factors for room and speaker inter-action there are others. The actual composition materials that the room is constructed from. Plaster vs drywall cement floor vs wood et al.. Also the third factor in room dimension - ceiling height. So the height of the speaker, room size and ceiling height affect the sound as well as placement. Finally a factor that chages daily - the human body Hearing is affected by reactions to humidity, sinus conditions, allergies. And while sound is not always affected by heat, temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, how you feel, etc., the human body including hearing is. Exposure to other sounds and their SPL over time affects your ability to hear different frequencies. So those days when your system just doesn't sound right, that may be. Or from any of a number of factors, your hearing is somewhat altered. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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