wpanic Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Hi all: Being new, I hope I'm not breaking too many protocol rules, but here's my question: I have a pair of RF-3's and a KSW 12. Both are served by a Pioneer Elite VSX-35TX. The problem with the Pioneer (and other amps, I assume} is that in choosing the front speakers, either large or small, for the N.1 setup, is that when one chooses Large, the Pioneer's crossover chops a lot off of the sub, so one has to choose small, and hamstring a beautiful pair of RF-3's. (sorry for the long sentence) So, what I'd like to do is run both a high level input (L&R Speaker level) AND the LFE out from the Pioneer to the KSW-12. This should allow me to get better bass out of the RF-3's (I can set them back to Large). Can I do that? Also, to further complicate things, I need to parallel the connection to the KSW-12... (due to distance and simply wanting to keep the cabling clean) What size load does the KSW-12 present to the amp when using the high level inputs, if any? I want to make sure I set the impedance on the amp correctly. Thanks in advance, Regards, Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Ok first off, don't connect both at once as it won't work and I wouldn't want to see you risking damage to anything. What you're suggesting would be like using two amps to drive one speaker (big no no). I might also add that the reason you feel like your sub doesn't do much is because it simply isn't a good subwoofer. The four 8" drivers on your RF-3's equates to double the surface area of your single 12" driver in your subwoofer. Right away, your sub needs to double it's excursion to match the volume of your mains. And then, your sub is rated down to 26Hz versus the 37Hz of your mains. That extra 10Hz equates to about 3 notes on a scale. Btw, it's not a bad thing to set a full range speaker to small. All the small setting means is that the main speaker doesn't get the low frequency information. With using a subwoofer that can fill the low end better than the mains, then setting the mains to small will greatly improve the midrange performance of your system. The shorter wavelengths of the higher frequencies being produced by the woofer will no longer be riding along the longer wavelength of the lower frequencies (think of it as the doppler effect). Is there a setting on your reciever so that you can set the subwoofer to "LFE+Main"? I know that's the terminology that Denon uses, but under your subwoofer settings, there should be something that allows your subwoofer to also play notes below the crossover frequency that it being sent to the mains. What this does is when your mains are set to large, your subwoofer still gets some of that signal. It's my guess that this is actually turned on and your mains are just overpowering your subwoofer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wpanic Posted February 20, 2005 Author Share Posted February 20, 2005 Thanks for the response Dr Who.... As for the setup, I am not convinced that runnign the LFE and high level will damage anything.... but I don't have the schema to the KSW 12. Actually, I forgot to mention that I planned to disco the high level when running a 7.1 source and vice a versa when running a straight stereo source.... Second, to the contrary: The sub performs extremely well and I never said it didn't, only that the RF-3's low end was neutered. And while your dogma is showing, I happen to think it's the KSW 12 is a pretty good sub. 400+ watts is not too shabby, especially when Klipsch did not make a Refernece version when I purchased my RF-3's... I think they came out with RSW's a year later. (Thanks Klipsch...) The sub performs so well in fact, that my wife hates it. That should be proof enough and a badge of honor for any red blooded amreican male.... Don't get me wrong though, I'd love to have an RSW-12 (or -15) but my wife would kill me... I had not thought of the increased mids with the small setting but it makes sense. Thanbks for the tip. And as for the "LFE + Main" Pioneer does not appear to have a similar setting. I can adjust the low crossover, but the speakers are either large or small. In fact, the Pioneer manual states that if you do set the mains to large and run a sub, you'll experience a significant loss of bass.... Int he end the RF-3s are great speakers, and with the horns I wanted to fill in the bottom end even more than what the sub does, utilizing the RF-3s drivers... So I guess my question still stands.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 ---------------- On 2/20/2005 10:39:07 PM wpanic wrote: As for the setup, I am not convinced that runnign the LFE and high level will damage anything.... - I don't even know if the KSW-12 will allow that. I believe it will see either one signal source or the other. If it does see both, I still wouldn't recommend it. I happen to think it's the KSW 12 is a pretty good sub. 400+ watts is not too shabby, ...The sub performs so well in fact, that my wife hates it. - I second the fact that what you are experiencing may be low performance from the sub. The KSW's are notoriously boomy (making themselves too known at the wrong frequencies). The RF3's are far better performers and the fact that the fullness coming from them sounds preferable reinforces my notion. Trying to eek out more from this combination by wiring as you suggested may exaggerate your problem. In fact, the Pioneer manual states that if you do set the mains to large and run a sub, you'll experience a significant loss of bass.... That all depends on your equipment and bass management settings. If your Pioneer allows, I recommend setting your mains to small, run your LFE and also set the BASS setting to subwoofer (meaning your sub will handle all of your bass frequencies below your receiver's or your own preset point along with the LFE) which is the same suggestion as DrWho's LFE+Main setting on the Denon. This will run your system most effectively as the drivers will be reproducing what they were designed for, and only that. Int he end the RF-3s are great speakers, and with the horns I wanted to fill in the bottom end even more than what the sub does, utilizing the RF-3s drivers... - I agree they are great, but multiple different sized drivers reproducing the same frequencies, especially when they weren't designed for that: not recommended. As I mentioned above, what I think you're missing is the tonal quality of a good subwoofer. I think demo-ing the KSW side by side with an RSW or something even more refined will be quite revealing. Not bashing, just suggesting. The KSW-12 was my first sub so I know its qualities fairly well. It's all up to you in the end, of course. PS. If you are looking for RSW quality but don't want to shell out the cash I can make some suggestions, but I don't want to get in trouble so I'll keep it at that for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 ---------------- On 2/12/2005 10:02:02 PM wpanic wrote: Hi all: Being new, I hope I'm not breaking too many protocol rules, but here's my question: I have a pair of RF-3's and a KSW 12. Both are served by a Pioneer Elite VSX-35TX. The problem with the Pioneer (and other amps, I assume} is that in choosing the front speakers, either large or small, for the N.1 setup, is that when one chooses Large, the Pioneer's crossover chops a lot off of the sub, so one has to choose small, and hamstring a beautiful pair of RF-3's. (sorry for the long sentence) So, what I'd like to do is run both a high level input (L&R Speaker level) AND the LFE out from the Pioneer to the KSW-12. This should allow me to get better bass out of the RF-3's (I can set them back to Large). Can I do that? Also, to further complicate things, I need to parallel the connection to the KSW-12... (due to distance and simply wanting to keep the cabling clean) What size load does the KSW-12 present to the amp when using the high level inputs, if any? I want to make sure I set the impedance on the amp correctly. Thanks in advance, Regards, Bill. ---------------- another option to maximize your bass is to run your sub off of the preouts for your main speakers.... get a y-splitter to combine the right and left channels and run that signal into your low-level input on your sub..... you then use the sub crossover to determine the cutoff level of the high frequency.... you need to setup your receiver as to "no sub".... the LFE channel as well as the sub signals from your surround and center channels will be sent to your mains as well as your sub.... you might have problems with your mains being able to handle the LFE channel.... a variation of this scenerio would be to set it up just as i have described but include a selector switch by the sub that will select the signal from the main preouts and the actual sub line level out from the receiver.... then you could switch back and forth (as well as resetting your receiver to "sub - yes") for movies and music.... before i got my elite 55txi, i tried some very similiar configurations to maximize my sub output with my klf-30's.... (the 55txi has three main speaker settings - "small", "large" and "plus"..... in the "plus" setting the mains are set to large and the signal is also sent to the sub) good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Does the Pioneer mute it's internal amplifiers when an rca is connected to the main l / r preouts? My Marantz does. If the Pioneer does this, then he must run an outboard amplifier off of the preouts to power the main left and right speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 ---------------- On 2/21/2005 6:37:32 PM michael hurd wrote: Does the Pioneer mute it's internal amplifiers when an rca is connected to the main l / r preouts? My Marantz does. If the Pioneer does this, then he must run an outboard amplifier off of the preouts to power the main left and right speakers. ---------------- i don't think this is the case in the pioneer elite line in my old 24tx as well as my current 55txi, the line outputs do not mute the internal amps when they are used.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Ok, after reading your manual I think I have it figured out (pages 33 and 34). When setting your subwoofer you have three options: yes, no, and plus. Setting your subwoofer to PLUS will send all bass information to the subwoofer below the specified crossover frequency in additon to the LFE channel. Note that every speaker set to large will still recieve the full bandwidth (so if your mains are set to large, both the sub and your mains will be reproducing the bass). Now when listening to music, just make sure that you are in the stereo mode (not direct) and your sub and mains should be working together in tandem. When watching movies, your sub and mains will again be working in tandem, but the sub will also be reproducing the LFE channel. This is what you're after, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 if the 35tx has the "plus" option as dr who indicated then it is easy - just set it to "plus" and you are good to go!!!! that is the way i run my KLF-30's with my 55txi and my velodyne CT-150..... you can still adjust the subwoofer level from the remote to fine tune it for different sources..... my LP's need more help fromthe sub than do the CD's for example.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 I forgot about that feature. I think on the Yammies it's called Both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vettemanfrom1973 Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 I own the VSX-07TX and I had a problem with the subwoofer settings as well and both of our solutions could be remedied with the same treatment (My problem was that I wanted my sub to pound and rock along with my KLF-30's in stereo mode, BUT!!!, by setting the mains to large the stupid receiver does not use sub in stereo mode, the only way to get the sub working in stereo mode is set mains to small, it does sound good but man does it urk me knowing that I have to refer to my KLF-30's as "small"!!!) Anyway... my suggestion is to use the "B speaker" pre-outs or run speaker wire from the "B speaker" out on the receiver. This would atleast make it easily switched on and off using the "B speaker" on/off switch. Thought this might avoid some of the minor BS associated with using the main speaker outs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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