timbley Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 This is an old post I'm responding to. ---------------- On 9/14/2003 8:54:40 AM leok wrote: Missing lower midrange power (good esp for piano, cello, probably voice too) was my main reason for obtaining the Chorus-II (classic 3-way approach). I find with the RF-7, if I sit, 3' to 6' from them, with the speakers directly facing me and my ears in line with the upper cone, I get maximum mid presence. I think the cones really can't keep up with the dynamics of the horn, but there is a sweet spot, within 8' from the speakers, where the cones do pretty well. Most people don't notice the crossover problem that I complain about with 3-way systems. What I like about the RF-7s is there is a single driver from 2KHz up. With some music, that clean top end is worth the loss in lower mid punch. If I want room filling, dynamically balanced sound I use the Chorus-II. leok ---------------- I've been playing around with my new DEQ2496 and it's calibrated microphone. What it's showing me on the real time analyzer is that the RF-7s seem to dip down a bit around 1850Hz. I've measured as close as 1 meter to a speaker, and as far as 3 meters away, with the speakers in various different room placements. This dip seems to be a consistent thing, at least with my SA-XR50 receiver powering the RF-7s. A 3/2 octave +5db paramater at 1845 hz flattens it out on the RTA with the microphone at 1 meter. I wonder if these speakers, being designed with home theater in mind, were intended to let the center channel carry the vocals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 My impression is that the RF-7s were designed to let the RC-7 dominate the dialog from 1 khz to 2 khz. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Since submitting that note I've done a couple of things to improve the situation for my listening. 1) replace horn series crossover caps to Voltage conditioned Jensen PIOs. 2) I place a couple of bass traps on the floor between the listening position and the speakers to block floor reflections. The Chorus-IIs still have a bit more mid punch and are a lot of fun, but the RF-7s now handle piano very well and are, by a fair margin, my choice for most listening. I've moved the SETs and Philips player to the RF-7 system (which now uses the RB5s for center channel and Janis for sub in those SACD multi channels). Leo timbley, I ran out of time .. I wanted to respond to your measurements. First, thanks for posting your results. I don't have equipment for such measurements (many here probably don't) and have been wondering what measurements would show. Although it's a little low (1850Hz instead of 2200Hz) I wonder if the dip is associated with the crossover. Is the measurement different in line with the upper cone, midway between the cones, in line with the tweeter? In any case, I would guess that a speaker company might opt for a slight dip in that region rather than a peak which would make the system sound shouty. Completely smooth over the crossover region was probably not cost effective. Also, did you try different amplitudes? It has been theorized (not by me, but it sounds reasonable) that the horn would have greater dynamic capability than the cones. In this case, cones might be emphasized at lower amplitudes and the horn emphasized a higher amplitudes. I think the Chorus-II has the edge here because it is horn from 600Hz up, but of course, I've never measured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted March 2, 2005 Author Share Posted March 2, 2005 ---------------- On 3/2/2005 7:17:47 AM leok wrote: Although it's a little low (1850Hz instead of 2200Hz) I wonder if the dip is associated with the crossover. Is the measurement different in line with the upper cone, midway between the cones, in line with the tweeter? In any case, I would guess that a speaker company might opt for a slight dip in that region rather than a peak which would make the system sound shouty. Completely smooth over the crossover region was probably not cost effective. Also, did you try different amplitudes? It has been theorized (not by me, but it sounds reasonable) that the horn would have greater dynamic capability than the cones. In this case, cones might be emphasized at lower amplitudes and the horn emphasized a higher amplitudes. I think the Chorus-II has the edge here because it is horn from 600Hz up, but of course, I've never measured. ---------------- Hi Leo, It's good to know you're continuing to refine your RF-7 system. I'm assuming the dip has something to do with the crossover. Perhaps the mid-woofers start tapering off earlier than the stated 2200Hz. I did these measurements at a single amplitude using pink noise. It was loud enough to become irritating over time without earplugs on, but not super loud. I had the microphone pointing straight up and a little higher than the upper mid/woofer center. At a distance of 3 meters, I had the mic. about level with the tweeter, which is where my head pretty much is in the listening position. I'll try doing measurements at different amplitudes and heights tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted March 3, 2005 Author Share Posted March 3, 2005 ---------------- On 3/2/2005 7:17:47 AM leok wrote: timbley, Also, did you try different amplitudes? It has been theorized (not by me, but it sounds reasonable) that the horn would have greater dynamic capability than the cones. In this case, cones might be emphasized at lower amplitudes and the horn emphasized a higher amplitudes. I think the Chorus-II has the edge here because it is horn from 600Hz up, but of course, I've never measured. ---------------- I tried different amplitudes tonight, varying 18 db, I saw no difference in the relative shape of the curve within that volume range. My actual seating distance is about 9 feet, which is a little less than the 3 meters I said earlier. With the mic. at a distance of 3 feet the dropout is actually closer to 1600 Hz , and is more pronounced. I was going to post pictures of a bunch of RTA results taken from different distances and heights, but I'm too tired to do it all tonight. The midrange drop out I referred to is less prominent and more spread out at 9 feet than at 3 feet. I suppose a distance of 12 feet might be better still, but I don't have that much room. Here is the RTA result of the RF-7s from my listening position with both speakers playing: And here with some EQ that I think sounds better. You can see peaks and dips in the bass that look pretty dramatic, but don't really sound like much. They vary in different positions around the room, so I find it better not to get carried away trying to correct them with the EQ. Here's a distance of 3ft and microphone same height as tweeter, no EQ. I don't know that the dip seen here neccessarily means anything important when measured from this distance. I took this measurement because another post suggested using the microphone and RTA at about 1 meter. For me, trying to use the RTA and the microphone has been pretty tough. The room is very reactive. Moving the microphone a little bit can produce some significant changes. It's hard to know what to ignore and what to pay attention to. The RTA has gotten me into moving my room around as much as trying to EQ the speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted March 3, 2005 Author Share Posted March 3, 2005 ---------------- On 3/2/2005 7:17:47 AM leok wrote: Since submitting that note I've done a couple of things to improve the situation for my listening.2) I place a couple of bass traps on the floor between the listening position and the speakers to block floor reflections. Leo What do these floor mounted bass traps look like? Do you have to move them when you're not listening? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 timbley, Very interesting measurements. I'm impressed with the flatness of the speaker's crossover region and high end as well as the overall response of your room. The low end bumps and dips are almost certainly room effects. The bass traps are 18" long triangular foam, about 1' on two equal sides. The face has big ripples. My RF-7 system is in an office and I can leave the traps where they are. They are light and easily moved. I'll get the source and name for you, but I can's seem to find it right now. Again, interesting and nicely none measurements, They're better than I expected. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted March 5, 2005 Author Share Posted March 5, 2005 ---------------- On 3/3/2005 7:18:30 AM leok wrote: timbley, Very interesting measurements. I'm impressed with the flatness of the speaker's crossover region and high end as well as the overall response of your room. The low end bumps and dips are almost certainly room effects. The bass traps are 18" long triangular foam, about 1' on two equal sides. The face has big ripples. My RF-7 system is in an office and I can leave the traps where they are. They are light and easily moved. I'll get the source and name for you, but I can's seem to find it right now. Again, interesting and nicely none measurements, They're better than I expected. Leo ---------------- Thanks Leo, I too was impressed with how flat the RTA looked through the upper midrange and treble. The bass bumps and dips have been reduced significantly since I set my room up asymmetrically. Before, I was applying a sharp notch filter around 40hz to counter a very pronounced boom. That isn't neccessary any more. The bass sounds as good as the EQ can make it with just a -3db parameter at about 42.5 hz. Trying to smooth out the bass with more extreme EQ settings gives me bass that sounds disjointed from the music, almost turbulent and rough, if you can imagine rough bass. I was thinking about buying a second carpet and stacking it on top of my current one for better absorption of first reflections from the floor. Tonight I moved a bookshelf away from the sweet spot, and layered another heavy, Goodwill issue curtain in front of the wall and part of the sliding glass door behind the sweet spot. It's looking, and sounding even better. Still it appears that there is a general depression centered around 1600 to 1800 hz. Or you could call it a lump in the bass, and a slight peak around 9K before the treble starts to roll off, however you want to look at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholtl Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 So what exactly do these legendary DeanG crossovers do? Tighten up the high-end while sweetening the midrange? What if you don't live nearby? Does Dean send you the parts along with a step-by-step manual of installation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 nicholtl, I think Dean's aproach is similar to mine in that he replaces the high pass horn series caps with higher grade technology and build. I happen to be using Jensen PIO. Others prefer polypropylene film-foil or metalized foil. Whatever cap is used I recommend voltage conditioning as a precaution against minor defects that are often in new caps. The high end has lower distortion and as a result sounds smoother, more natural, and more detailed. Distortion products contribute to a crisp, but un-natural hi-fi sound. people sometimes mistake that crispness for detail, but it's actually not part of the original sound. If you listen to unamplified acoustic instruments and voice you'll notice that it's really quite soft on top. Improving cap quality in high frequency crossovers moves their sound in that softer, more natural direction. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted March 6, 2005 Author Share Posted March 6, 2005 ---------------- On 3/5/2005 2:52:20 AM nicholtl wrote: So what exactly do these legendary DeanG crossovers do? Tighten up the high-end while sweetening the midrange? What if you don't live nearby? Does Dean send you the parts along with a step-by-step manual of installation? ---------------- I'd love to hear Dean's crossovers too, or hear Leo's mod. But I'm leary of getting into the speaker and changing things from stock. They're still under warrenty, and right now they sound wonderful. Working on my listening room arrangement, and using a little EQ has pretty much removed all my complaints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted March 6, 2005 Share Posted March 6, 2005 "right now they sound wonderful. Working on my listening room arrangement, and using a little EQ has pretty much removed all my complaints." Time to put your feet up, sit back and enjoy!!!! Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted March 9, 2005 Author Share Posted March 9, 2005 ---------------- On 3/6/2005 11:07:16 PM 3dzapper wrote: Time to put your feet up, sit back and enjoy!!!! Rick ---------------- Ah yes. I'd better do some of that. I'm going to need some rest before I tear all the drywall and insulation out of my room and replace it with acoustic treatments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted March 9, 2005 Author Share Posted March 9, 2005 Working on my listening room arrangement, and using a little EQ has pretty much removed all my complaints. ---------------- I should clarify that these things have removed my complaints that I percieved about the speakers. I can see better than ever that my listening room is really the limiting factor for me. It's improved a lot, but going over to other, non-audiophile's homes and hearing how their cheapy speakers sound in a nice big room with high vaulted ceilings makes me feel a little sick some times. To what degree can acoustic treatments transform a small room? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorcilantro Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 I'd like to hear more about the EQ applied here. Are you doing this with upgraded crossovers or without...I gather without, but just checking. I'll bring my mic home from work and test this weekend. DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 timbley (the original thread starter) hasn't been on here since 2005. I doubt he'll be able to answer your question. [6] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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