Help narrow down system choices

[BobbyT]

I'm getting closer to buying a new system and I have a couple of ideas of how I'd like to go. Could you guys tell me which would sound better. I'd guess at 85% music and 15% movies. I listen to multi channel SACD, DVDA, concert DVDs, and 2 channel CDs. I'm not wanting to get into seperates.

choice 1-5 RB75s

2 RS3s(I already have these)

SVS PC Ultra or

Klipsch RSW 15

Pioneer Elite 56Txi receiver

Pioneer Elite 59Avi DVD connected via i link

choice 2-2 RF7s

1 RC7

2 RB35s

2 RS3s

SVS PC Ultra

B&K 507-2 receiver

Denon 3910 DVD

Does anyone know how good the bass management on the Denon 3910 is for SACD and DVDA?

Edited:I initially put the Denon 2910 DVD but I meant to put the 3910 and added RSW 15 to system 1

[Zen Traveler]

What a dilemma! I don't think you could go wrong with 1 or 2. If you listen to 85% music and have the space let me give you a 3rd alternative:

I would go with 2 RF-7's/RC-7 and consider additional towers for your surround speakers. I have 2 RF-3's with my RS-7's sitting right on top of them (use to be RS-3's before upgrade cycle). I use the towers for Music and Both for movies. I have a Denon 4802R which allows me to use 2 sets of side surrounds; independently or together.

The B &K is a good unit, but I can't imagine it being much better than a comparable Denon (4802-R or the 3805) which you may be able to pick up at a better price which in turn can help pay for better surrounds. I didn't necessarily like the way the Pioneers sounded with Klipsch in Ultimate Electronics' Hard Rock Cafe rooms (which I visited many), but I am sure others will disagree.

The Denon 2910 is a good unit and the bass management allows you to boost the bass 10 dB. The Denon 3910 is a great unit and although I have both, I haven't A/B'd the two to see if the bass mgt. and DAC's are that much better in the latter. I don't notice anything missing when I listen to DVD-A/SACD on the 2910.YMMV

{Edit: I tried the RB-75's instead of the RF-3 towers that I already owned as side surrounds, but I didn't like them as much. Keep in mind room acoustics make a difference and others (and yourself) may have different results. The RB-75's are good speakers and great bookshelves IMHO}

It sounds like the fun is about to begin.

[BobbyT]

Thanks for the reply. I meant to write the Denon 3910 instead of the 2910 and have edited my first post to the 3910.

I don't have room for rear towers. We are moving in about a year but I won't know if I'll have room for rear towers until then. I figure nice Bookshelves like the 35s and 75s are a safer bet. I have RF3-IIs that will be stored in thier boxes when I upgrade. If I find myself with the room for rear towers in the future I can always pull them back out .

[SteelerFan]

In my opinion, the B&K would be a good choice for your receiver. It's a non-current limiting design and sounds great with Klipsch.

You may want to consider going with one of the Klipsch RSW series subwoofers, they really shine with music. The SVS might be the better choice if you were more heavily biased toward movies.

[Zen Traveler]

BobbyT writes: "I don't have room for rear towers."

That's sort of what I thought when I was looking at your choices. I use the RB-75's as mains in my bedroom and I like them alot. I also use them as rear surrounds in my main theater, but it is slightly "overkill." I would go the RF-7 route; save money on the receiver and buy a Denon (or not and get the B&K- excellent receiver) and get RB-75's as surrounds.

When you move, pull out the RF-3's and put the RS-3's on top of them (I raised mine 10 inches so all of my tweeters were at ear level) and use the RB-75's as rear surrounds in a 9.1 set up.

With all that being said, I don't know if the RB-75's are THAT much better than the "35's" particularly in a surround situation--but since you listen to so much music, I would consider it especially if you can audition them side by side. I also have a small room (pics on the "Show me your theater," thread on page 20) but a high ceiling that helps with my acoustics.

Here is a thread at the AVS forum, which has been helpful to me insofar as the DVD-3910:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=447795

They also have one on the Pioneer you are looking at. Good luck with the upgrade.

[BobbyT]

After reading through that thread about the 3910 It doesn't look so good anymore.

[Zen Traveler]

Don't let it scare you unless you have one of those displays that experience macroblocking. I don't know if the Pioneer would be any better (I didn't read through that thread), but I am happy with mine.

I just listened to my R.E.M greatest hits DVD-A and I don't think it could get any better. Somewhere on that thread is a link to Kris Dearing's "Benchmark" test of both DVD's,--who knows if it was rigged (I am always skeptical), but they both were comparable. The real question, " is either one $650 better than the Denon DVD-2910?" Maybe.

[MrMcGoo]

For music, the RF-7s are the better speakers IMO. The problem with the RF-7s is that they require a very stout amp for best performance. With a very good amp, a subwoofer is optional for music.

I would pair the RF-7s with the Pioneer to get the i.link for DVD-A and SACD. I have i.link equiped gear and think it is hard to beat for music. CDs are jitter free over the i.link. The receiver does bass management and time alignment. The Advanced MCACC has to be heard to be appreciated as to what it can do to help a room.

Add a two channel outboard amp and upgraded crossovers on the RF-7s and you will be amazed at the quality of the music. I would go with the less expensive Pioneer DV-47Ai unless the video on the DV-59AVi is important to you.

I have used a B&K amp with my RF-7s. The 507 will not handle the impedance dip on the RF-7s IMO, but neither will the Pioneer. The RF-7s go as low as 2.8 ohms per Sound and Vision. The B&K Reference amps would work well, but not the B&K receivers or lower powered amps.

Bill

[BobbyT]

I assumed the amps in the 507 would handle the RF7s dips. Your replies to some of my other posts are what led me to the Pioneer i link setup. I could look at the 56Txi-59Avi combo with a B&K 2 ch amp paired with RF7s and a RC7. I may not have enough room in my current house for RF7s . But I'm not afraid to squeeze them in .

[Zen Traveler]

BobbyT,

I gather from your original post, you have a budget you are trying to stay around. I highly recommend sticking to it. It's easy to overspend in this hobby.

Mr. McGoo and I agree on getting the RF-7. Where we disagree is having to have such a high powered amp to drive the RF-7's. In a large room or if money is no object I would consider getting 200+ wpc. I am sure they would benefit, but at what cost? I venture to say most people that own RF-7's run them on considerably less and are quite happy.

I didn't know that the Pioneer passed SACD through the ILink and that would be a definite consideration. The Denon passes DVD-A through the Denon Link (Denon AVR-3805 & 5803). But not SACD. I have the Denon AVR-4802R/DVD 3910 combo going through the 6 analog cables and Rebook CD's, DVD-A and SACD's sound phenomenal and I experience no jitter.

I also agree with Steelerfan on the RSW-15, but I haven't heard an SVS ultra. Alot to think about, but if you are moving in a year, I would get the speakers you want now and decide what amp (or separates) you want to upgrade to then. Just a 2nd opinion

[marksdad]

system 2 is hands down the better system, bot are good, but # 2 is a no brainer better system

[sivadselim]

i don't know about the receivers or the players, but i REALLY like the idea of 5 identical speakers, the RB75s in your scenario, for 5-channel music listening.

[MrMcGoo]

People always assume that I recommend a big amp for the RF-7s for the wattage. The real reason is that the amp needs to be able to follow the impedance curve of the speaker without letting the voltage drop.

The B&K receiver has three pairs of output devices per channel. The B&K Reference amps use five pairs per channel and come close to doubleing output as the impedance is cut in half. The Reference amp has a more linear output with a low impedance load.

An amp that can follow the impedance curve has much tighter bass and flatter frequency response. Many folks on the forum are pleasantly surprised when they add a big solid state amp to drive their RF-7s.

Bill

[BobbyT]

Mr McGoo some questions. What amp are you using to drive your RF7s? Is thier a difference in sound in multichannel since you are using an outboard amp and the Pioneer's amps? And the one that holds me up on RF7s, If using the Pioneer setup with i link, mcacc, and a good sub, wouldn't the RF7s be not used to thier full potential even with a good outboard amp?

[BobbyT]

I did some number crunching and if I go with choice 1 I could also get a RSW 15 instead of the PC Ultra. Does anyone know which would be better for music. Movies are important but not as important as music accuracy. Also my Klipsch dealer carries the Paradigm Servo 15 but I don't have any experience with it.

[MrMcGoo]

My equipment is listed in my profile. I use Sunfire outboard amps because they can handle the low impedances with ease and run cool.

The advantage of the Pioneer with the RF-7 package is that the integration of the speakers is seamless with use of MCACC. The Pioneer should go with the RF-7s and the B&K with the five RB-75s.

The Pioneer will sound very good with the RF-7s. It is just that their full potential cannot be realized without better amplification. I run my RF-7s as "small" as recommended by THX. I let the subwoofer handle the lower bass frequencies without interference.

Bill

[Zen Traveler]

It sounds like you are close to having your mind made up. If you are leaning toward 5 bookshelf speakers instead the RF-7/C-7, I would take into consideration what your upgrade plans will be when you move. Given your 2 choices I would agree with Marksdad.

I understand where MrMcGoo is coming from insofar as "wattage" or WPC is concerned. I don't know that I would choose the Pioneer over the B&K. It helps to look at the Power Consumption number in relation to the WPC. I don't have the specs of the Pioneer or B&K in front of me, but I would guess the B&K comes out far better in that regard. When you move in a year you can use your B&K 507 as a pre-amp and then buy your power amplifiers at that time (if you feel the need).

I do not doubt that many folks are impressed when they make that upgrade--I am sure I would be one of them. It boils down to cost verses enjoyment factor. My Denon is THX ultra 2 certified and I paid around $1700 for it 2 years ago. It's power consumption is 10.5A into 125 WPC. It allowed me to upgrade my speaker purchase and I don't regret that decision one bit.

[Zen Traveler]

FYI. If you are worried about enough power going to the RF-7's--I saw a link on the AVS forum where you could BI-amp the Denon AVR-3805's rear surrounds (in Zone-2 mode) to the front channels in a 5.1 configuration. I wonder if you could do that with either of the receivers you are looking at. Just another idea...

[BobbyT]

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On 3/27/2005 6:23:04 PM tkdamerica wrote:

It sounds like you are close to having your mind made up.

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I could only wish. All of the responses now have me rethinking different options. I've actually been working on this,researching and listening, for almost 2 years to get to this point. I have a 2 week vacation scheduled at the beginning of August during which I plan to buy, set up, and tweak my new system.

Mr McGoo one more question. I read your system profile, most impressive by the way, and saw that you run RS7s and RS3s. How do those sound on multi channel SACD and DVDA? I thought bookshelves would be better but I must admit that I do like the sound with my RS3s.

[colterphoto1]

Nice post, good options. I'll back up one step and try to theorize with you why certain choices already posted make good sense for your listening tastes.

I will consider that you are on a budget, good idea. So the RS3's will stay in some form or another. Can do.

Your specified listening habits of mostly music lead to the conclusion that you need killer LR mains. The arguement of 5-7 identical speakers makes little sense based on this profile. Unless you listen to a LOT of SACD's. I have no experience with them.Consider that many receivers do not output to sub when in basic 2ch mode (with no dsp), so you need full range bass in your mains. RF7 is the logical choice.

Any other Klipsch in the Reference lineup will suffice for the other selections, so remain true to your budget and get as close to RF7 performance as possible (there will undoubtedly be some efficiency and slight timbre differences here- but we're trying to stay on budget okay- this guy is not going to buy 5 RF7's - its not necessary)

Only one center will do and that is the RC7.

If your room is shaped long and narrow (you're setup on short wall), use your RS3 for side surround and get whatever RB you can afford for rear. If it's a wide room, just reverse the situation.

Get a mid price-point sub maybe RW12. Don't overkill if you don't watch that many movies, Remember you can leave RF7 to LARGE and route LFE to them as well, you've got 4x 10" woofers there- work em.

That's pretty much it from my viewpoint. oh yeah, get out and listen to some peoples systems in their homes. Where you at?

Michael