kriscad Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 pic: http://client.webshots.com/photo/361438534/361447002WtsHFZ It's a 3rd floor room - so I wanted to do everything I could to soundproof it. I really didn't like the current flooring I had, so I ended up laying down 30lb tar paper, and then added 3/4" Tongue and groove Advantek flooring yesterday. Half about half of it screwed down, and will try to finish the rest today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 Well..you did good using the Advantek,I use this in all my houses and its the best I've ever used.It could rain on this stuff for 6 months and it still don't swell or flake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriscad Posted June 7, 2005 Author Share Posted June 7, 2005 funny you say that... i spoke to a home builder here, he told me a story how when he first used it in a new home he was building, that i thad rained almost an inch... he went to the job site 3 days later to see water standing in the floor - upset, he only could think of the problems the standing water would cause.... after drilling holes to get the water out,. he waited a week for the floor to start buckling or show signs of damage. To his suprise, nothing happened lol since then, thats all he uses in the homes that build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 If I might ask, why the tarpaper? There are materials made specifically to reduce transmission of sound, in turn they must be sealed properly, or they will be of little use in attenuating sound. There is also the issue of structural transmission, no matter what you can't get away from that. You could reduce it with a room inside a room constrution. Most people would not tend to agree with that treatment, so you just have to make the best of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriscad Posted June 8, 2005 Author Share Posted June 8, 2005 ---------------- On 6/8/2005 6:55:14 PM michael hurd wrote: If I might ask, why the tarpaper? There are materials made specifically to reduce transmission of sound, in turn they must be sealed properly, or they will be of little use in attenuating sound. There is also the issue of structural transmission, no matter what you can't get away from that. You could reduce it with a room inside a room constrution. Most people would not tend to agree with that treatment, so you just have to make the best of it. ---------------- It's a time issue - I could of ordered a Vinyl Barrier type product, but my current office at home will soon be turned into a room for the baby. In the process of finishing out this new room for me, I got the HT bug... but like you said, I will have to make the best of it for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 Good to know, I just hope that it won't cause any smells in the room after completion. I wonder if a laminate floor might be as good or better in this sort of application, with the foam underneath. As of right now, the floor in our apartment is just cheesy peel and stick tiles, and if we stay here, I'd like to replace them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 ---------------- On 6/9/2005 5:16:38 PM michael hurd wrote: Good to know, I just hope that it won't cause any smells in the room after completion. ---------------- Tar paper used to be a "relatively" common construction method to reduce squeaks under hardwood strip flooring. ---------------- On 6/9/2005 5:16:38 PM michael hurd wrote: I wonder if a laminate floor might be as good or better in this sort of application, with the foam underneath. ---------------- Better, yes, but to a certain extent. It definitely helps with the IIC (Impact Insulation Class) rating of the floor, but less so for the STC (sound transmission coiefficient) given you'll still have coupling at the walls. Building a floating room like you mentioned improves it more dramatically. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 I have heard of using waxed paper under real hardwood flooring, but have never heard of using tarpaper. I guess different products are used by many people, who knows if anything is needed, might be one of those urban myths that has been perpetrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/publications/en/rh-pr/tech/90246.htm ** http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/publications/en/rh-pr/tech/90247.htm ** You can always play with added mass, but remember that conduction will sabotage mass loading... http://soundproofing.org/infopages/flooring.htm ** P.S. Just be aware (beware ) that the sources are Canadien! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 We used that tarpaper stuff under our wood floor when we put it in a while back and we were kinda skeptical about it so we tried it out. Since we were laying the floor ourselves it wasn't going to be a big deal or cost us anything so we laid some boards down (no nails of course) and then laid more boards down with the tarpaper underneathe. The room itself had far less echo when the tarpaper was used...probably mostly due to the fact that the original step was also much quieter (is that the impact rating that was mentioned?). So anyways, we decided to use it in the rest of the house and never looked back. I will mention though that sound totally travels through the floors though (moreso into the basement where there's no drywall cieling nor insulation between the floors). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Thanks! I just added those pages to my favorites, so I can review them at any time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Actually the CHMC web site has a wealth of lab tests all performed under controlled conditions making them easily comparable. It's a good site for those who are looking for some reading material. A couple of interesting points I'd like to make on those articles: 1) they are testing centre of composition performance, but builders then frequently overlook the junctions which become the weakest links. 2) These tests only deal with sound transmission through floors, and not the sound quality within the room. 3) as an answer to the benefit in using tar paper, compositions 12 and 15 on part 2 show almost no gain in STC or IIC. If I recall correctly, the practice was more intended to prevent nail (spike) movement though... 4) if you read their wall tests as well, they have not found much transmission benefit in using the acoustical wood fibreboard (such as sonopan) in compositions. (floor 10) As for the meaning of IIC... it's a factor to indicate sound transmission from direct impact, like footsteps. (they will often be louder the floor below than in the room itself). An excellent example of IIC versus STC would be a concrete slab (which has a good STC but poor IIC) as dropping quarter onto a bare concrete floor will transmit well the the room below.... but yelling in the room is almost inaudible downstairs. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriscad Posted June 12, 2005 Author Share Posted June 12, 2005 ---------------- On 6/10/2005 4:42:23 PM formica wrote: Actually the CHMC web site has a wealth of lab tests all performed under controlled conditions making them easily comparable. It's a good site for those who are looking for some reading material. A couple of interesting points I'd like to make on those articles: 1) they are testing centre of composition performance, but builders then frequently overlook the junctions which become the weakest links. 2) These tests only deal with sound transmission through floors, and not the sound quality within the room. 3) as an answer to the benefit in using tar paper, compositions 12 and 15 on part 2 show almost no gain in STC or IIC. If I recall correctly, the practice was more intended to prevent nail (spike) movement though... 4) if you read their wall tests as well, they have not found much transmission benefit in using the acoustical wood fibreboard (such as sonopan) in compositions. (floor 10) As for the meaning of IIC... it's a factor to indicate sound transmission from direct impact, like footsteps. (they will often be louder the floor below than in the room itself). An excellent example of IIC versus STC would be a concrete slab (which has a good STC but poor IIC) as dropping quarter onto a bare concrete floor will transmit well the the room below.... but yelling in the room is almost inaudible downstairs. Rob ---------------- interesting site indeed... Between the floor joist I put down R35 insulation - then we have a normal 3/4 plywood tounge n groove floor, then I added the 30 lb tar paper on top of the orignal floor, with the new Advantek floor on top screwed down. Also Sealed all the seams with a flexible caulk. And I Completely filled all voids and any openings I had such as outlets, lights and electrical boxes. Question I have now is... should I go ahead and get a vinyl roll material before I start laying down the carpet? http://www.soundproofing.org/sales/prices.html ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted June 12, 2005 Share Posted June 12, 2005 A few comments and thoughts... Conduction via tightly coupled surfaces will transmit sound despite all of the treated voids! And mass is required to dissipate low frequency conduction! Think of it like temperature leakage through a window! I don't care what type of exotic low-E glass you install, if the frame is aluminum exposed to both the inner and outer surfaces, the heat is lost to the outside environment via conductive losses through the frame! Short of decoupled and floated surfaces (i.e. the 'common' practice in buildings of floating concrete rooms upon neoprene pucks upon a concrete foundation - in industrial and studio design!), inert mass is the most effective insulation. One idea that I have seen employed effectively in retrofitting existing wood frame buildings has been to install (after thorough caulking and sealing!!!! ...There is NO way around this!) an underlayment of floated ~1/2"-5/8" 'Styrofoam board' topped by heavy mass-loaded material(up to and including sealed lead composition sheets) acting as an underlayment for the desired flooring surface. Note, the effectiveness of this method is degraded by tightly coupling the treatment to the building frame. Hence the applied system must 'float'. This method has been employed commercially with the products I listed above in this link: http://soundproofing.org/infopages/flooring.htm Carpet, in itself, offers little improvement regarding the transmission of sound through a floor, although it may reduce the localized MF impact noise resulting from heel strikes. Unfortunately, such noise is negligible when compared to the response of a subwoofer! Likewise, carpet is also rather ineffectual for meaningful reflection control, as the critcal 800-2kHz mid range frequencies are only effected minimally (or less!). Unfortunately, this is one of the most difficult situations to tame, and it is not one that can be solved by trivial treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriscad Posted June 26, 2005 Author Share Posted June 26, 2005 I ended up adding the 1/4 vinyl-nitrile on top of the new sub floor - and under the carpet pad... seems to work - now I need to control the sound going down the stairwell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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