Randy Taylor Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 I know that there is some break-in audio, because I have built different amp kits and rebuilt vintage tube amps,I thought I did something wrong when listening for the first few hours, I been it sounded like crap, then between 10 and 20 hours everthing starts to fall in place and sound great. Also if you use Auricaps in your amp you better wait 50 hours for the thing to sound good. I know this is true because I can hear it, and other people hear the same thing. I know there are people out there that don't hear the same things because about three years ago I ran into a old TV and Radio repair man, and he was the only man in East Texas that still repaired old tube stuff still around and he worked in the bussiness since the second world war and he really beleived that all 12ax7's sounded the same, no matter if it was telefunken, RCA, or Mullard they all sounded the same, and that went for any type of tubes and caps too. The only thing I could figure was he didn't listen to any Hi-end audio in his life time or he didn't have good hearing, maybe all he heard in tube audio were the old five tube AM table Radios. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizRotus Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 ---------------- On 6/21/2005 9:47:28 PM Randy Taylor wrote: " ... he really beleived that all 12ax7's sounded the same, no matter if it was telefunken, RCA, or Mullard they all sounded the same, and that went for any type of tubes and caps too. The only thing I could figure was he didn't listen to any Hi-end audio in his life time or he didn't have good hearing, maybe all he heard in tube audio were the old five tube AM table Radios. "---------------- Or, possibly, he was right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Taylor Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Do you not hear a differents in tubes from different manufactures or from capacitors manufactures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 ---------------- On 6/22/2005 1:49:14 PM Randy Taylor wrote: Do you not hear a differents in tubes from different manufactures or from capacitors manufactures? ---------------- Well if their is a difference, it certainly is less than the difference one's mind would percieve (either consciously or unconsciously). If you expect there to be a change, then you are going to hear a change even if there wasn't one. I can think of countless situations from live mixing where a difference of 10dB was percieved to have happened in the other direction. Here's just one example that happens over and over: I will be asked to turn something up in the monitor...I turn it down 10dB and they thank me for turning it up. Some days I'll tell the musician what I did and they get rather flustered and feel stupid about it. After a while they start to catch on and stop anticipating the change in sound. Eventually the learn how to actually listen to other instruments (instead of zoning in on themself) and then they actually start asking for proper changes in the mix (cuz if I do the opposite, they can tell). But in the end, the fact that such a huge magnitude of change can be percieved to have occured the other way just shows that our mind's have more to do with the sound than the actual sound itself. This is why minute unmeasurable changes in sound are so adamantly defended...the listeners undoubtedly hear a difference, but what they don't realize is that they subconsciously want to hear the difference (why else would they shell out the money?). All that's happening is the purchase has put the listener in a position where they listen to the music differently and if that means more enjoyment, then all the more power to them. Perhaps it's because I'm a poor college kid, but I'm going to stick to investments that result in positive changes that don't require fancy psychology to hear them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erukian Posted June 22, 2005 Author Share Posted June 22, 2005 I consider myself definately an audio-enthusiast-novice, so don't hit me over the head too hard for putting out these thoughts, so onto the reply. Comparing tubes to eachother is WAY different. It's pretty obvious that tubes distort. Like equalizers, tubes distort in a plesant way, from my experince, they bloom the mids to make them "lush" and roll off the high's removing a lot of listening fatigue but don't dim the highs at all, just slowly as the range goes up. Something that can be done with an "really good" equalizer, not just a 32 band analog, but an electronic 32-64band parametric EQ with Shelf EQ capabilities before it hits the DAC. Comparing tubes from different manuf's will give you measurably different THD. So yes, they will sound different. I'm not sure about caps though, I personally believe that blackgates sound definately better than a cheap brand even though their rated the same. A virgin to tube/ss gear or vynil is definately not going to hear the difference between mediocre and great equipment at first, they have to let their ears learn the difference. Being TOLD what sounds better only only perpeturates placebo down the line when the realize what they were first told is right; they tend to believe once they get a hand on the audio scene that "cables really do matter" because the knowledgable people who first pointed you in the right direction are now pointing you in a highly questionable direction. I think the audio scene is majorly screwed up when buyers honestly think that digital speakers are not analog, and that monster wire is half of the sound. Either way, back to the topic, I think it's a personal decision that i've made to not trust what others think they hear because the first thing that pops into my head when someone promotes one similiar product over another is "placebo". I honestly feel suckered into buying monster cable 16GA even though it was relatively cheap and on sale. From my own listening tests, looking at the stats on the equipment and learning the electrical facts i came to a conclusion. So now if some review gives me the buyers itch, i naturally question "why" it would do so scientifically, especially after reading a stereophile review With the state that the audio scene is in right now I honestly take everything said with a grain of salt from unknown to respected audiophiles, and I won't take it any other way until science can back what their saying. -Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedball Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 More than likely based on what the "paper" says both my stereo systems sound like garbage. Over at the audioholics forum they are dedicated to telling people what to believe just because the "paper" tells them so and they are quite proud of themselves. When was the last time you followed the rules to a "T" when driving, according to the official state issued manual? The sky is falling! The sky is falling! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erukian Posted June 23, 2005 Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 Science isnt capable of explaining all of audio phenomena right now but I honstly believe it can someday. Even though using my philosophy of science to explain audio is incomplete, at least it's not inconsistant rather than a ton of people just yelling to me "it just sounds better!" and the other ton of people yelling "It's distortion! Tube owners are half-deaf!" For me, it's just not good enough to pick sides and call it a day. Sure they can sound better, but I need to know why. When it comes to amplifiers, and there are a lot of Tube lovers in here, here's what I have come to think of them and why they can sound better. THD and IMD measurements cannot distinguish between low order distortion and high order distortion. Here's a thesis to read about it and the author states high order distortion is MUCH more audible to human (our) ears. The arguement the paper makes is that SET amps while do pretty bad in the THD/IMD graphs, do surprisingly well in high order distortion than SS amps. The negative feedback is just a trade off, get some lower distortion to clean up the audible higher distortion and that triode amps in particular do a great job of reducing open-loop distortion. Keep in mind the paper doesn't take a very objective point of view, but besides that, it's fairly convincing. -Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedball Posted June 25, 2005 Share Posted June 25, 2005 Thank's anyway but Ill just go with what sounds good to me....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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