tpg Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 ---------------- On 7/8/2005 8:36:36 PM CAS wrote: When I tune mine to roll off at 25 (which is still good till near 20 and still more capable extension than the sub-12 can accomplish) I lose a great deal of material that was very audibly there before. ---------------- Here, here. I just did some enclosure changing for my sub (a Blueprint 1503) from a large vented enclosure, to large sealed, to small sealed and the difference is quite notable. The change from large vented to large sealed was not so bad... it sounded tons better for music and still shook plenty of things for music. Going to small sealed, though, I lost a lot of lower energy and shake fator during movies, but music presentation is light years better. LOTR is just not quite the same anymore... But still decent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 ---------------- On 7/8/2005 8:36:36 PM CAS wrote: ---------------- On 7/8/2005 5:55:02 PM Spkrdctr wrote: Just to make it clear, the sub-12 is the least expensive, not the biggest bang for your buck. And it's quite a bit more than a couple Hz. Upper twenties vs teens is a tremendous difference when you take into consideration the fact that subs only have a bandwidth of around 60 audible Hz. When I tune mine to roll off at 25 (which is still good till near 20 and still more capable extension than the sub-12 can accomplish) I lose a great deal of material that was very audibly there before. No loss of love for the sub-12, just don't like hearing obvious inaccuracies. ---------------- Picky Picky! Like I said, it is the least expensive by a wide margin. You can get them for $450 at Best Buy. An SVS with shipping is about 50% more money! That is a huge percentage. You get no where near 50% more performance. Also, I agree with your intent on talking about extremely low frequency material, but reproducing frequencies in the teens is the least important part of the sub spectrum for a "normal" user. Remember, we are also talking about the Klipsch which is the least expensive sub normally available that really works as a "real" complete sub. Also, as I too have heard the below 20 frequencies, I would not buy a sub based on its ability to reproduce those freqs. The volume at those low freqs is not enough to really know it. So, if you are choosing between two roughly equal subs, than yes, you would go for some low extension to be a tie breaker. But comparing the Klipsch for $450 versus the SVS for over $750 to $700 with shipping. The Klipsch is the best bang for the buck. So, my post was not inaccurate. It was just looking at the question from a different angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 ---------------- On 7/9/2005 11:32:35 AM Spkrdctr wrote: ---------------- On 7/8/2005 8:36:36 PM CAS wrote: ---------------- On 7/8/2005 5:55:02 PM Spkrdctr wrote: "An SVS with shipping is about 50% more money! That is a huge percentage. You get no where near 50% more performance." You may be suprised. "Also, I agree with your intent on talking about extremely low frequency material, but reproducing frequencies in the teens is the least important part of the sub spectrum for a "normal" user." You're kidding, right? I think most who own real subs would disgree with you 180 degrees. "Also, as I too have heard the below 20 frequencies, I would not buy a sub based on its ability to reproduce those freqs. The volume at those low freqs is not enough to really know it." The volume is too low? Then you really have never experienced a sub that could accurately reproduce those frequencies the way the director of the film intended. It is frequently some of the very loudest material in the film. I think the problem here is merely lack of experience with such tactile response. "So, if you are choosing between two roughly equal subs, than yes, you would go for some low extension to be a tie breaker. But comparing the Klipsch for $450 versus the SVS for over $750 to $700 with shipping. The Klipsch is the best bang for the buck. So, my post was not inaccurate. It was just looking at the question from a different angle." Where was it ever displayed that the sub-12 outdoes the 20-39 in any category? And the price of the 20-39pci is $599 while shipping to my location is $27.00 via UPS ground for a grand total of $626, not $750, so the difference on a $450 plus 7% tax sub-12 ($482) vs the 20-39 would be only 23% or $144. And truthfully, if a sub cannot create a significant tactile response below 25 Hz then it's worth very little to me in home theater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 ---------------- On 7/11/2005 10:39:47 AM CAS wrote: ---------------- On 7/9/2005 11:32:35 AM Spkrdctr wrote: ---------------- On 7/8/2005 8:36:36 PM CAS wrote: ---------------- On 7/8/2005 5:55:02 PM Spkrdctr wrote: "An SVS with shipping is about 50% more money! That is a huge percentage. You get no where near 50% more performance." You may be suprised. ******Not really. I have heard strong subs and weak subs. A couple of db is usually not worth a lot more money. Quite a few db would of course be worth it!******** "Also, I agree with your intent on talking about extremely low frequency material, but reproducing frequencies in the teens is the least important part of the sub spectrum for a "normal" user." You're kidding, right? I think most who own real subs would disgree with you 180 degrees. *****Nope I'm not kidding. Most owners who own real subs read the various magazines touting this and that killer sub that goes a whole 3 hertz lower and 2 db louder than the second place sub. Not really hearing the difference with test material, the "audiophile" must run out and buy the new latest and greatest sub, because it has a whole 3 more hz of extension! Side by side you would never notice during actual program material. This is another in a long list of where marketing reigns supreme.******* "Also, as I too have heard the below 20 frequencies, I would not buy a sub based on its ability to reproduce those freqs. The volume at those low freqs is not enough to really know it." The volume is too low? Then you really have never experienced a sub that could accurately reproduce those frequencies the way the director of the film intended. It is frequently some of the very loudest material in the film. I think the problem here is merely lack of experience with such tactile response. *****Remember, we are talking the teens here. There is very little there in music, and not a bunch in movies although it is increasing. You will be hearing the 25hz through 40hz material much louder than anything in the teens. The 25hz material will give you tactile response. Listen to 15hz. It is interesting, but not all that amazing. Again, marketing has everyone believing that if they don't go after the "holy grail" of 15hz then the sub is not worth buying. This is pure rubbish. Many good subs can't do 15hz well. Most subs can do 25hz very well, and thus sound pretty good. Still with tactile response, which I agree with you as being necessary for HT.******** "So, if you are choosing between two roughly equal subs, than yes, you would go for some low extension to be a tie breaker. But comparing the Klipsch for $450 versus the SVS for over $750 to $700 with shipping. The Klipsch is the best bang for the buck. So, my post was not inaccurate. It was just looking at the question from a different angle." Where was it ever displayed that the sub-12 outdoes the 20-39 in any category? And the price of the 20-39pci is $599 while shipping to my location is $27.00 via UPS ground for a grand total of $626, not $750, so the difference on a $450 plus 7% tax sub-12 ($482) vs the 20-39 would be only 23% or $144. ******I'll agree with you numbers, focusing on 23% more cost.********* And truthfully, if a sub cannot create a significant tactile response below 25 Hz then it's worth very little to me in home theater. ******I already touched on this. Having massive response below 25hz is fine if you want to spend the money. But since the Klipsch sub is the cheapest sub I know of that is a "real" sub, there is nothing cheaper you can buy. Making a blanket statement that any sub that can't do xyz at this freq, is worth very little is true for you. But then you are not in the market for the most inexpensive full on, "real" sub. They do make the JBL sub (same price as the Klipsch)but it tends to break a lot, so I am not considering it for this discussion.******* ---------------- If you are an SVS fan, that is great! But factually the Klipsch is still $144 cheaper. Now, if SVS had a sale and matched the Klipsch pricing, that would of course, change the discussion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 *****Nope I'm not kidding. Most owners who own real subs read the various magazines touting this and that killer sub that goes a whole 3 hertz lower and 2 db louder than the second place sub. Not really hearing the difference with test material, the "audiophile" must run out and buy the new latest and greatest sub, because it has a whole 3 more hz of extension! Side by side you would never notice during actual program material. This is another in a long list of where marketing reigns supreme.******* The difference here is not 3 Hz. It's from probably near 30 to 18. That's 12 out of 60 or 20% of a sub's entire job. Let me tell you, when I tune my sub to 25 (which is still good to nearly 20, I loose an enormous amount of material in a movie that was audibly there before. You have proven yourself beyond a doubt that you have not heard a sub with this capability. *****Remember, we are talking the teens here. There is very little there in music, and not a bunch in movies although it is increasing. You will be hearing the 25hz through 40hz material much louder than anything in the teens. The 25hz material will give you tactile response. Listen to 15hz. It is interesting, but not all that amazing. Again, marketing has everyone believing that if they don't go after the "holy grail" of 15hz then the sub is not worth buying. This is pure rubbish. Many good subs can't do 15hz well. Most subs can do 25hz very well, and thus sound pretty good. Still with tactile response, which I agree with you as being necessary for HT.******** Of course music doesn't contain this material. I don't even listen to music with a sub. It's pure HT. And I'm not sure where you're seeing marketing campaigns that advertise extreme absolute extension. I'm just going off personal experience. ******** If you are an SVS fan, that is great! But factually the Klipsch is still $144 cheaper. Now, if SVS had a sale and matched the Klipsch pricing, that would of course, change the discussion!******** It still makes me curious why you're comparing a more capable sub with a less capable one, but it becomes clearer when it sounds as if you don't care about anything under 30Hz. I'll give you a demo...one piece of HT material with the sub tuned to 16Hz, then the same piece tuned to roll off at 25Hz (and I don't have to use one with strong subsonic material). You will be amazed at the difference. Trust me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 ---------------- On 7/12/2005 8:38:34 AM CAS wrote: The difference here is not 3 Hz. It's from probably near 30 to 18. That's 12 out of 60 or 20% of a sub's entire job. Let me tell you, when I tune my sub to 25 (which is still good to nearly 20, I loose an enormous amount of material in a movie that was audibly there before. You have proven yourself beyond a doubt that you have not heard a sub with this capability. *****Actually in reproducing the sound material it is probably about 10% of the subs spectrum. By that I mean that the over 20hz material will be 90% of the material the sub reproduces. Unless you get a movie with a long solid tone below 20hz. In total program material, the teens area is a smidgeon, compared to above 20hz material. I'm not saying there is no below 20hz stuff, but you have to keep it in perspective to the overall spectrum that will be reproduced.****** Of course music doesn't contain this material. I don't even listen to music with a sub. It's pure HT. And I'm not sure where you're seeing marketing campaigns that advertise extreme absolute extension. I'm just going off personal experience. ******** If you are an SVS fan, that is great! But factually the Klipsch is still $144 cheaper. Now, if SVS had a sale and matched the Klipsch pricing, that would of course, change the discussion!******** It still makes me curious why you're comparing a more capable sub with a less capable one, but it becomes clearer when it sounds as if you don't care about anything under 30Hz. I'll give you a demo...one piece of HT material with the sub tuned to 16Hz, then the same piece tuned to roll off at 25Hz (and I don't have to use one with strong subsonic material). You will be amazed at the difference. Trust me. ---------------- ******I was comparing a less capable sub with a more capable sub because the price was less, $144 less according to your calculations. It is the least expensive "real" sub I know of on the market. There are others that do not have real sub performance so I don't call them real. The Klipsch is a real performer at the lowest price on the market at Best Buy for $459 on sale. The SVS sub is also very nice but it costs $144 more. So, it depends on what the original poster wanted, to save maximum bucks and get the Klipsch, or go more expensive and get the SVS.****** You have proven yourself beyond a doubt that you have not heard a sub with this capability. It becomes clearer when it sounds as if you don't care about anything under 30Hz. ****Nope. I said in the teens. I don't care about anything in the teens. I would recommend to any sub buyer who is not looking for an "awesome grade" sub to get one that will go to 20hz and forget the teens. Heck, if it does 25hz with good volume, most likely it will still have enough volume at 20hz to get by.****** ******I guess we have exhausted this topic by now. By all means though if someone wants to buy an SVS sub they should go for it. If they want the Klipsch, then they should buy it too. Whatever you like and can afford. well, except for Bose.....****** I'll give you a demo...one piece of HT material with the sub tuned to 16Hz, then the same piece tuned to roll off at 25Hz (and I don't have to use one with strong subsonic material). You will be amazed at the difference. Trust me. *****I would like to do the demo. It would be fun. Do you live anywhere near Orlando?***** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 ---------------- *****I would like to do the demo. It would be fun. Do you live anywhere near Orlando?***** ---------------- Only in my dreams. I'd give up a lot to live there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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