kenratboy Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 By small I mean 13' X 13'6 X 9' (1580 cu. ft.) and sealed (close doors). Do you think I will get...good bass responce? I am so tempted to pull the trigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 They will play quite loud in that small area. As far as getting good response, I would plug your numbers into a room mode calculator, and go from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Deon Bearden Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Two Sub-12's will be very loud in such a small room. The two ~~ 13' walls will generate first eigentones around 43.5 and 41.8hz respectively. Below this frequency the room will transition to a pressure zone, and you will see the effects of room gain adding a bit of lift to lower freq SPL. Unfortunately - These eigentones are close enough in frequency (<5%) that your ear will lump them together and they will sound like a single tone, 6dB louder than the a single peak in those frequencies. Even more troublesome, their third peak (between 125 and 130) will coincide with the first eigentone of the height mode (your 9' ceiling) at 124hz. So yes they WILL be loud insuch a small room. But you will also likely have very boomy modes around 45 and 125hz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxsubwoofers Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 ---------------- On 7/10/2005 8:40:21 PM kenratboy wrote: By small I mean 13' X 13'6 X 9' (1580 cu. ft.) and sealed (close doors). Do you think I will get...good bass responce? ---------------- Your room is almost about the same size of my room, except mines is a rectangle not a square. My room has 8ft hight ceilings and not 9 ft. Assuming that the bass responce wouldn't be well in a small room, you should run those 2 Sub-12 Woofers in a larger room with higher ceilings. I tested my old 12in sony subwoofer running about 120 watts, because I couldn't carry my RW-12 subwoofer. My sony subwoofer sounded a lot louder in my hudge living room with 14ft ceilings. I can imagine placing my RW-12 subwoofer, and how loud it will sound in a larger room with a help of 2 people carrying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted July 12, 2005 Author Share Posted July 12, 2005 Deon, I love having someone smart crunch numbers for me Yeah, in our downstairs system (big open room...but not too big), corner loading my JBL sub provides a clean, earthshaking experience. In my room, it looses a lot, but can be boomy sometimes. What would 2, SUB-12's vs. 1, RSW-15 be like? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted July 13, 2005 Author Share Posted July 13, 2005 Now I am looking at the M&K MX-350 Mk II subwoofer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Unless M&K have redone their subs, I would not use them. A few years back they were pretty much worthless in my opinion. Maybe they are all new and have gotten much better? Just go in with your eyes wide open. Also, go on the Home Theater thread (ask our know it alls, er, uh, I mean experts) and see how that M&K sub compares to the Klipsch models or even the SVS price wise. Good Luck!It used to be M&K was overpriced for what you got. It might have changed though...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted July 13, 2005 Author Share Posted July 13, 2005 Well, I get a hefty dealer accomodation - no way I could or would pay MSRP for their subs. Also, going by reviews, Nousine's (sp?) subwoofer SPL page (if you look at the less powerful version thats on there, and compare it to the one I want - danm...), etc., I don't know why people knock them (other than price). I am being led to believe they don't produce any bass!!!??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 ---------------- On 7/12/2005 7:08:40 PM kenratboy wrote: What would 2, SUB-12's vs. 1, RSW-15 be like? ---------------- ---------------- On 7/11/2005 4:00:51 PM Deon Bearden wrote: Two Sub-12's will be very loud in such a small room... But you will also likely have very boomy modes around 45 and 125hz. ---------------- I think the point was that the room will be more influential than the subs in a small squarish room... How about one Sub12 and a parametric EQ?... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD1032 Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 The sub-12 is an absolute monster. In a small bedroom, two of them would sound horrible. One would be a lot of bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 ---------------- On 7/15/2005 10:04:18 PM MD1032 wrote: In a small bedroom, two of them would sound horrible. ---------------- Just curious what your reasoning is...I see two subs reducing distortion and allowing for the possibility of fancy positioning to counteract room modes. You can always turn a subwoofer down if you find it overpowering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 As Deon said,you will have some freq.peaks,some good subwoofer EQ use would help,and positioning a good deal.Positioning is key,plus when the EQ is used correctly less than ideal room acoustic can be tamed to a point. 13*13*9 is still larger than my smaller 10*14*6(12tall divided in two!LOL) room. Now imagine for a second three RSW's,four Sunfire,two Polk PSW's used at once in this "tiny" space And too boot it sounds good,not overpowering at all.The secret is matching each sub,parametric sub EQ use and phase and positioning.All done,if not it would be a grand mess,a festival of cancellation and boom. Just play with positioning,find the spot for the first sub,optimal spot.best sound,least boom,most natural bass.From then you can stack a sub directly on top or search for another space,remember this may take some time,but worth the effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD1032 Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 ---------------- On 7/16/2005 12:38:57 AM DrWho wrote: ---------------- On 7/15/2005 10:04:18 PM MD1032 wrote: In a small bedroom, two of them would sound horrible. ---------------- Just curious what your reasoning is...I see two subs reducing distortion and allowing for the possibility of fancy positioning to counteract room modes. You can always turn a subwoofer down if you find it overpowering ---------------- Well, you've got two gigantic subs, each with enough power by themselves to fill probably five of his rooms. You're really going to have to turn down both of the subwoofers a lot, which obviously limits the quality of their output substantially. Simply put, they're not necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 ---------------- On 7/20/2005 8:17:38 PM MD1032 wrote: You're really going to have to turn down both of the subwoofers a lot, which obviously limits the quality of their output substantially. ---------------- Using a subwoofer near it's output maximum (ie: either excursion or amplifier) will introduce several different types of distortion... so having more subwoofer than required is actually a good thing. Reread DrWho's post as he was on the right track... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD1032 Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 ---------------- On 7/21/2005 12:36:58 AM formica wrote: ---------------- On 7/20/2005 8:17:38 PM MD1032 wrote: You're really going to have to turn down both of the subwoofers a lot, which obviously limits the quality of their output substantially. ---------------- Using a subwoofer near it's output maximum (ie: either excursion or amplifier) will introduce several different types of distortion... so having more subwoofer than required is actually a good thing. Reread DrWho's post as he was on the right track... Rob ---------------- We're not going to be pushing this subwoofer to the limit at all. The top end of speakers do distort, and so do the bottom end of potentiometers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Well calculating the specs backwards, the sub-12 driver has a sensitivty of about 92dB if it takes 300 watts to produce 117dB. Two stacked Sub-12's would then have a total sensitivity of 98dB, which is 1dB more than the 97dB for the F3 mains. Two stacked subs also increase the max power handling to 123dB, which puts 20dB of headroom right at 103dB (versus 97dB). When listening at the same levels, two subs will have 1/2 the excursion (thus 1/2 the FMD and THD) and each amplifier will also be putting out 1/2 the watts (which puts the amp in a much much more linear range, especially considering the bash amp design). I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about distortion with potentiometers. If you're really that worried about it then just drop in a resistor! But even if you don't want to do that I can guarantee that the reduction in distortion by having two units will be far greater in magnitude than the increase in distortion you MIGHT get running the gains lower. Btw, you only have to drop the input on each sub by 3dB, or you can drop the input on the reciever by 6dB when compared to the single sub...but keep in mind that a single sub will need to be boosted 5dB relative to the mains. Adding two subs will allow him to adjust the subs to -1dB...hardly putting you into a range of extremes. In fact, it would be putting you closer to the midpoints where everything is more linear. Some more factors to throw in there...with each amplifier putting out less watts, each amplifier will also be running colder and therefore be more linear and the same thing is true for the voicecoils in the subwoofers. Also, ports start behaving nonlinearly as the excursion increases, not to mention the difference in suspension and cone flexing. Heck, less cone movement also means less port noise too. Cabinet vibrations are also reduced by the decrease in cone movement and will not only sound better, but make the entire speaker last longer too. The point I'm trying to get to is that there is no such thing as overkill. I find it ironic though that for the same cabinet volume as two sub-12's, i can pretty much guarantee that a single driver system taking the same volume should perform better...similar max SPL with a lot more extension (or similar extension with more SPL). Since size of the speaker is usually the limiting factor, it's usually best to go with a single driver system that uses as much space as you can afford...but now we're getting into the wonderful realm of choosing your compromises and generalities start ceasing to exist (simply because every application and user preference is different). Btw, I hope I don't come across as picking on anybody...I just like talking about all this stuff and find it interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD1032 Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Thanks for the write-up, you have an excellent point and I see what you mean. In my experience, though, when I have had to turn things down to a certain point because they are so loud, you lose sound quality and even get channel imbalance problems. It looks like this wouldn't be a problem here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 well what things specifically sound bad when you turn them down? I can't contradict personal experienes. For example, the pro-media series exhibit what you talk about for the first few degrees of rotation on the main volume knob, but no biggy...turn down the output from your pc and turn up the dial on the promedia and problem solved. It just depends on the kind of pot being used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 ---------------- On 7/21/2005 10:24:12 PM DrWho wrote: well what things specifically sound bad when you turn them down? I can't contradict personal experienes. For example, the pro-media series exhibit what you talk about for the first few degrees of rotation on the main volume knob, but no biggy...turn down the output from your pc and turn up the dial on the promedia and problem solved. It just depends on the kind of pot being used. ---------------- Anyone with experience knows that inexpensive speakers like the proMedia line cannot use high quality parts found in High-End gear.And yes the problem described with the first analog volume controls on the 2.1 and 4.1 PM is there.But most People will not notice anyway. With high quality preamps this is a non issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD1032 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 All right. Well I have exactly what you describe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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