Duke Spinner Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 well, Eddie .... do you really think a ML 33 is ..$12,000 better than say .. a Crown Macro Reference ...???? ML won't publish thier spec's looking inside, we can see they both have extensive input AC filtering they both have many output devices, in this case FET's they both use a traditional grounded bridge design ML is avoiding the use of coupling capacitors between the stages of amplification and so .. where are we ...??? $10,000 apart, with no spec's ... oh, yea ,,and a lot of advertising $$$$$ spent on the audiophile side ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 ---------------- On 8/20/2005 8:07:33 AM Duke Spinner wrote: well, Eddie .... do you really think a ML 33 is ..$12,000 better than say .. a Crown Macro Reference ...???? ---------------- What are we talking about here? 800 watts per channel? Average retail price in the U.S. around $4000? A very well designed pro audio amplifier, I quite agree. But my argument stands. A lot of pro audio stuff tends to be a little bright to my ears, and doesn't have the bandwidth of some domestic equivalents. Big Man is looking at the possibility of upgrading his amplifier to one that will do justice to the Jubilee. While I am a fan of higher powered amplifiers, I think a move towards a domestic S/S amplifier that MAY offer a smoother overall tonal presentation and superior resolution qualities better suited to a large horn speaker system like the Jubilee, is the go. I'm talking new stuff here. In the U.S. you have access to well priced classic reference gear. I don't in Australia. So I make my recommendations accordingly. But as to absolute sound quality... Maybe the ML 383 is better, maybe not. I've heard the ML 383 driving Thiel 2.4's, not the Klipschorns. It's a very nice amplifier. As to how it goes driving the Jubilee, only a really good home trial will tell. Whether it's better than what Big Man has, only an extended listening session can tell us. Anyway, after buying something like the Jubilees, I reckon looking for the biggest 'bang for your buck', is not the best way to extract the best sound quality from your new system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 ---------------- On 8/20/2005 9:20:04 AM edwinr wrote: A lot of pro audio stuff tends to be a little bright to my ears, and doesn't have the bandwidth of some domestic equivalents. .........domestic S/S amplifier that MAY offer a smoother overall tonal presentation and superior resolution qualities. ---------------- Don't confuse Cheap pro-sound stuff with Quality Pro sound stuff .. it's just as price competitve as the Home Market you can buy what ever level of crap you want ..... Saaay .. ever hear a Crown I-Tech ..?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 ---------------- On 8/20/2005 10:24:16 AM Duke Spinner wrote: Don't confuse Cheap pro-sound stuff with Quality Pro sound stuff .. Saaay .. ever hear a Crown I-Tech ..?? ---------------- Point taken. Maybe the Crown or some other really good pro stuff just might do the job. But I reckon, if I was in the hot seat as a buyer, I would like to compare the amplifiers using my speakers. Maybe the Crown would work, and maybe it would put the ML and other competitors to shame. Out of all the domestic S/S amplifiers I've heard, I like the ML 383, the Musical Fidelity KW500 and the Mac's best. The Musical Fidelity has a fairly bright sound and may not suit horns. The McIntosh is hard to beat, and may very well be a better option for the Jubilees. I've never heard the Crown I-Tech. Only it's reputation. Owners are as fanatical about the Crown as many SET owners are about their choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 No substitute for an audition .... i don't mean to beat the Crown thing to death .. QSC plx series are good amps Crest ... makes GREAT amps lot's swear by BGW it just happens i've used Crown 30 years, why change..... 70% of your Studio playback ... is Crown , 'n JBL.. well maybe 60% today, there are soooooooo many "monitor " manufacturers ... in any event, the D-75 spec's above are typical of ALL Crown products right thru 5000 wpc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted August 21, 2005 Share Posted August 21, 2005 ---------------- On 8/20/2005 8:16:20 PM Duke Spinner wrote: No substitute for an audition .... i don't mean to beat the Crown thing to death .. ---------------- That's okay. If you think they're that good, you need to tell others. In fact I want to have a listen myself. There's some good pro audio shops in Canberra. Maybe I can hear for myself why so many people swear by this brand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted August 21, 2005 Share Posted August 21, 2005 see if you can give a listen to a Studio Reference 1 , or S.R. 2 .... they can be bought used in the $ 1500 range the damping factor is 30,000 ..! the K-1 K-2.. you may find somewhat cold by comparison to consumer products you may also give a Macrotech a spin, they have a similar output scheme to the S.R. , without the fancy front end ....Colters got one , i belive where's The BGW guy ......?? been years since i heard one, they were great, too.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted August 21, 2005 Share Posted August 21, 2005 Duke, Based on your comments I looked up some details on the Crown D series. I have been investigating various ss designs (thinking of giving ss another chance now that I know a little more and the rest of my system is in better shape). The specs are compelling, and they focus on things I consider significant, as you mentioned, low intermodulation distortion at low power, and high damping factor. Also attractive is the low frequency limit of DC, which says to me "no caps in the signal path." I am particularly interested in the D45, since they make a point of low distortion at very low power. I'll probably give the amp a try. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSharp Posted August 21, 2005 Share Posted August 21, 2005 ---------------- On 8/20/2005 8:16:20 PM Duke Spinner wrote: No substitute for an audition .... i don't mean to beat the Crown thing to death .. QSC plx series are good amps Crest ... makes GREAT amps lot's swear by BGW it just happens i've used Crown 30 years, why change..... 70% of your Studio playback ... is Crown , 'n JBL.. well maybe 60% today, there are soooooooo many "monitor " manufacturers ... in any event, the D-75 spec's above are typical of ALL Crown products right thru 5000 wpc ---------------- Not to mention you can buy a brand new D-75A for $450. If you need more power you can buy 2 of them and run them bridged ( although the distortion increases ) and still spend under $1K... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted August 21, 2005 Share Posted August 21, 2005 well, Leok .... the D45/75 has been used for years as a horn amp for mid/ hi Tri-amp combonation.. i use my 75 for playback, nearfield ... for my Bi-amp, i use the Crown K-2 w/ Com-Tech 200's for the mid/highs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted August 21, 2005 Share Posted August 21, 2005 Duke, I looked up the alternate amps you mentioned. I use very little power. So far, the D series seems best for my needs. I don't bi-amp, tried it, and would re-consider, but first need to regain confidence in ss amps. I really don't listen "loud." Low level quality first. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted August 21, 2005 Share Posted August 21, 2005 i don't think any S/S amp ... can beat the low level spec's of the D45 at that price level, hell even add a couple grand there's No competition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 acouple points missed here ... S/S amplification .. may sound cold compared to tubes ... due to the wide bandwidth , ya know, 20 -20k is no sweat S/S may sound constrained compared to tubes , as the S/S amp can afford lotsa negative feedback , it's got gain to throw away ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSharp Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 ---------------- On 8/21/2005 8:25:55 PM Duke Spinner wrote: i don't think any S/S amp ... can beat the low level spec's of the D45 at that price level, hell even add a couple grand there's No competition ---------------- Even the older and higher output Crown amps have good specs at low levels. They're also extremely quiet electrically. From a DC300A Series II data sheet - Intermodulation Distortion (IMD): (SMPTE-IM 60 Hz and 7 kHz) Less than 0.05% from 0.01 to 0.25 watts, and less than 0.01% from 0.25 to rated maximum average power. The older non-Series II models have similar specs. Yet people complain about how they sound in a home audio system. Why? Too much bandwidth, response too flat, slew rate too high, damping too high? What? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 "well where's DJK ...?????" Short on sleep. Been busy working on old military GPS and avionics gear, had to pee in the bottle a couple of weeks ago. BGW uses the LM318 in inverting mode, 70V/µS, vastly better sounding than the 1V/µS µA739 found in the same vintage Crown amps. If you have a 'C' vintage or newer BGW750, a cap upgrade will make it sound better than 99.9% of most hi-fi amps. Quieter fans are available. The Crown D60/75 and the PSA2 are OK, you can keep the rest. The amplifier that PWK measured as having the lowest TIM distortion he had ever measured (in the DFH Vol. 16, No. 8, Sept '77), was the BGW100. While the BGW measures great, a cap upgrade will make it sound even better (the Crown D60/75 will also sound better with similar attention). Unfortunately there is no easy upgrade for the µA739 Crown used, or the quasi-comp output stages in the early Crown and BGW models. The caps do make a big difference though, and costs are very low for the DIY owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6foot8 Posted August 23, 2005 Author Share Posted August 23, 2005 DJK...thanks for responding! I have 750G driving the woofer horns and a 250E for the mid\highs. I will be picking up a beautiful 210 with a walnut case in a couple of hours. The 250E is still at ATI (formerly BGW) being restored to new includiing a new faceplate. The 750G is in new condition. My 750B is a back up and I own it really for nostalgic reasons more than anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6foot8 Posted August 24, 2005 Author Share Posted August 24, 2005 Hey Edwin...you live in Austrailia? I've always wanted to visit and roam around for a month or so. It's gotta be an awesome place to discover new things. The NAD lacked the bottom punch of the BGW and I discerned no real degredation in the mids with the BGW. That said, I am not using a "commerical" grade amp. These are studio quality and most don't even have colling fans. The 250 does have XLR inputs and 1/4 in jacks, but the 210 uses RCA type connectors and the old spring loaded type speaker terminals, it is not rack mountable either. The only "pro" design I am using is the 750G for the woofer horns. It may not be as clean as class A designs but then again we are talking about a limited bandwidth of 45-400 htz.... not to mention I need 400 watts per channel minimum to get theses things really moving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSharp Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 ---------------- On 8/23/2005 6:46:05 AM djk wrote: "well where's DJK ...?????" Short on sleep. Been busy working on old military GPS and avionics gear, had to pee in the bottle a couple of weeks ago. BGW uses the LM318 in inverting mode, 70V/µS, vastly better sounding than the 1V/µS µA739 found in the same vintage Crown amps. If you have a 'C' vintage or newer BGW750, a cap upgrade will make it sound better than 99.9% of most hi-fi amps. Quieter fans are available. The Crown D60/75 and the PSA2 are OK, you can keep the rest. The amplifier that PWK measured as having the lowest TIM distortion he had ever measured (in the DFH Vol. 16, No. 8, Sept '77), was the BGW100. While the BGW measures great, a cap upgrade will make it sound even better (the Crown D60/75 will also sound better with similar attention). Unfortunately there is no easy upgrade for the µA739 Crown used, or the quasi-comp output stages in the early Crown and BGW models. The caps do make a big difference though, and costs are very low for the DIY owner. ---------------- With my limited knowledge of power amps I looked at the schematic on the DC300A and it looks like short of making a new input/driver board I don't see how you could change much to make it better. Maybe removing the all the compensation parts and making a small board to fix the pinout that holds a modern internally compensated op amp. What do thay call that? Lipstick on a pig? I just bought a used D75A. I'm interested to see if my old ears can tell the difference between it and my ancient DC300A or the chip amp I built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 "With my limited knowledge of power amps I looked at the schematic on the DC300A and it looks like short of making a new input/driver board I don't see how you could change much to make it better. Maybe removing the all the compensation parts and making a small board to fix the pinout that holds a modern internally compensated op amp." It's too much work for the end result. VanAlstine has the right idea for a dead one. Gut it for the chassis and supply, then do a fresh design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 ---------------- On 8/24/2005 9:12:12 AM 6foot8 wrote: Hey Edwin...you live in Austrailia? ---------------- I surely do. In fact I live in the eastern part of Australia, about 100 kilometres from Canberra, the National Capital. Anytime you want, come over. Stay awhile. We've got plenty of room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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