Jazz Question?

[pauln]

Again I am able to post without signing in... is this happening to anybody else?

OK, this is a complicated question so I'll take it slow and hope no one misunderstands. As a musician I listen carefully to music and especially to the soloists - in particular the rhythmic, harmonic, and melodic relationship of their notes to the rest of the music. I don't have a comprehensive experience with jazz but I have listened to a lot of it for many years. Jazz originated with black Americans and they have fairly dominated since then in serious jazz circles. Others have joined and had some success, but there are many who say it is a valid question to ask if anyone can really play jazz if they are not black. I'm not sure about this, but I do notice a general difference in the playing style of black jazz musicians from others. Just wondering if it is my imagination or if this difference is real, and if so why.

What I notice is that black jazz mucisians like to relate the elements of their solos to upcoming changes in the chord progession - that is, they "lead" the harmonic content melodically. This is opposed to what I hear most other musicians do, which is to either play directly on the change or "lag" behind the change. I may not be explaining this very well, but what I mean is that there is a strong difference in character between playing "up ahead" and playing "on" or "behind" the harmonic structure of the music. Both of these techniques is a form of playing "outside", but the "up ahead" approach has a stronger, and to my ears, a more authentic jazz feel.

So first, has anyone heard this and do you agree that it lends the sense of authenticity?

Second, why is this happening? Jazz to me is very much a musician centric affair, and communication between the mucisians is where it's at. Does the "leading" aspect reflect a deeper level of musical communication amoung the black jazz musicians, or is this a cultural artifact of some kind? Something is going on here that I like, but what is it and where does it come from?

Paul

[Allan Songer]

There are lots and LOTS of white jazz players who have played in this manner(what you call "up head"--a nice description by the way)--three sax players I was listening to today come to mind: Art Pepper, Charlie Mariano and J.R. Monterose- and I don't think it's really a racial thing--and there are many black players who "lag behind" as you put it--two great tenor players that come to mind are Dexter Gordon and Teddy Edwards (especially later in his career).

Don't sweat it--just listen to what you like and enjoy. Sometimes overthinking this stuff can be problematic, but as a musician I know it's tough for you not to-I can barely read music and it takes everything I have to play "Onward Christian Soldiers" on the alto sax, so it is certainly less of a problem for me--I know just enough about playing to be in awe most of the time.

[pauln]

Allan, thanks. I haven't bought any music since the early 80's and seem to be in a rut. I'm listening to Duke Ellington, Mingus, and Max Roach (Money Jungle) right now. I only have about 10 other jazz albums. I want to get more, but I don't know what to do except look for Blue Note. Seriously, help me out. Could you set aside about 15 albums for me? I know in my bones I'll be hooked. I don't need any collector's gems, just good solid jazz to help me see the way. Mingus just came in on Duke's piano - really cool.

I have to listen now, let me know.

Paul

[Tom Mobley]

Paul,

send me an email or personal message, I can help you out with this.

[boomac]

This is really interesting stuff. I listen with a drummers perspective, (well, sort of) and Im certainly no expert but I think I notice more of a lag in the blues than in most jazz. I like the technique in both genres tho. With jazz, I also like things right on top. Grady Tate, the drummer on Jimmy Smiths Fourmost LP" is a good example. Another drummer, Mickey Roker, seems to lag quite often and his loose yet active style is one of my favorites. Check him out on Duke Pearsons Wahoo. Great stuff!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

[colterphoto1]

Interesting topic, although I have a question about the wording. Are you speaking about a musician making key changes before or after (harmonic structure)? This would be a bizarre sound indeed.

I think you are referring to the rhythmic device of playing slightly ahead of or behind the main tempo or beat of the music. If this is the case, I think it's more frequently used that the average listener might think. I have a recording of Allman Brothers band (pretty non-black, fair to say) where the bass player is wwwwaaaay behind the rest of the group. It's on the Dreams 4cd set so it'll take me a while to come up with the track.

I enjoy the effect, to me (with a recording and live music engineering backgroud) it separates the musicians and gives 'breathing space' When arranging music or at the console tweaking the tonality of instruments, it is generally accepted to give each member of the ensemble a 'range' within which to work. This keeps the snare, guitar, and vocalist from stepping on the same frequencies. When the music gets really busy, a shift in the timing of one of the instruments can help with this separation and give that instrument a spotlight.

Michael

[pauln]

Yes! I'm talking about the soloist anticipating the upcoming change in the chord progression and modifying his mode or scale or groove or melodic form or what ever you want to name it that the soloist is doing so that harmonically related (usually) tones in common between the present chord and the future chord are played during the present chord as a musical indication that something is about to change.

This is what to me distinguishes rock from blues from jazz. In rock the same mode may be used exclusively throughout the progression. This makes it easy to play. In blues the mode changes on the IV chord, and sometimes on the V chord. This takes more attention and skill, but it is still pretty easy. In jazz, the mode can change for EVERY chord change in the progression, and some jazz progressions can be really involved. I've written a jazz song that uses 11 different chords to get from the beginning to the end of the progression. In fact, with some jazz players, they actually infer additional chords that work harmonically between the main ones of the progression and insert melody tones from them as well. There is a lot to listen for in this kind of music.

Its like in blues when you go from the I chord to the IV chord, but just before the IV chord you slip in a quick #IV 9th, or just before you go from the IV back to the I you slip in a #IV diminished chord. These are "passing chords" and if the soloist understands how to include these tones when the band is changing chords in the progression it sounds cool and sultry and jazzy as hell. What I'm focusing on is when the soloist decides to include these new tones within the present mode - that is; a little early, dead on time, or a little late.

Information theory would contend that the most information content in a signal is when the signal reveals unexpected new information. The musical clue in the solo of upcoming events in the progression I think has a more revealing aspect to it - it makes you listen more carefully and draws you in.

I think you have something about the separation of the instrument spaces, too. Short of a ducking compressor (yuch!) all the musicians need a space in the mix to get their sound in place. I think most musicians that play live naturally use rhythmic strategies to achomplish this among themselves so all get through.

Sorry if this read like a music theory lesson. It's just how I hear it - always searching for more.

Passing Chord Paul

[colterphoto1]

Oh, interesting, but I could never get the hang of chords and key changes.

Mom always said I'd be sorry to give up piano after only a couple of years. Sorry Mom.

Michael

[pauln]

Not to offend any piano players, but I don't think the piano is a good instrument for learning about chords and such. On a piano each key signature (all dozen of them) uses a distinct pattern of black and/or white keys to play a scale or mode. This is a lot to learn. Chords are even more complex.

On stringed instruments like violins and guitars the pattern remains constant for each key, one just shifts relative position to a new place on the neck. This makes it fairly easy to play in all keys.

The guitar is a profoundly more simple instrument to play compared to a piano. To me, playing the piano is like trying to play two guitars at the same time.

On the guitar everything is about intervals. All the intervals are relative and constant from key to key. On the piano, this is strictly true, but the different keys will have diffent combinations and sequences of black and white keys. This is too much for me. I don't know how jazz pianists are even able to play at all!

The other thing is that learning the piano usually means learning to play existing songs whereas learning to play the guitar is more informal and involves individual exploration at an earlier point in the leaning process. I think the visualization process is quite different, too. The keyboard presents a complete but confusing picture. The fretboard is more subtle since a particular pitch may be played in half a dozen places on the different strings. This forces one's internal representation of the sound to be more abstract and personal.

Maybe I'm just full of it, but I trained formally on the piano (classical) for 5 years and learned music theory, but not really how to play music until I got a guitar. I go back to the piano now, and it makes more sense, but I'll never be musically at home there. On the other hand, I can play anything with a string streched across it!

Piano (not) Paul

[D-MAN]

For me, it's the sloppier "hambone" style that I think of when you guys are talking about "lag". The "on the porch" kind of ensemble work particularily appropriate for the blues, particularily delta-style, etc.

I prefer a ryhthmically tighter approach, and hence, Chicago style for blues.

These two genres are situational, IMO, it depends on where you hear it as to whether its appropriate or not. On my stereo, the tighter stuff, please.

For live, sloppy is fine. Either works live!

DM

[Colin]

Since I think Diana Krall can REALLY play jazz, no I dont think it is valid question. In fact, I am peeved at how much pop, rock and jazz music is relegated to the soul section, simply because the artist is black.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I have not noticed this, but that seems like a very interesting proposition that I will certainly check out! Playing ahead of the change does seem peppier and tighter, more with it and together, more professional. Thanks.

Perhaps the "leading" aspect merely reflects a deeper understanding of the music among people justly proud of its influence[H]