New project help

[johnsji]

I currently have a very small room with my Forte II's and Adcom gear and the sound is not going to be right without a lot of work. DrWho has been more than helpful in finding the reasons behind screaming horns and lack of bass. But, in the long run, it is going to take more work than I want to do to get it to sound acceptable, i.e. my wife doesn't want to put up me. []

The current room is dry wall over poured cement, carpet and unfortunately some oddly placed ductwork that traps the bass. Its dimensions are 9'5" (L) x 8'10" (w) x 7'5' (H). I know...a virtual cube. [:'(]

I have an area in the basement I can convert but it will never be a size that will fall within the accepted norms. This is where I am looking for guidance. It will have a cement floor and two poured cement walls. I plan to frame the cement walls so I can affix dry wall, the others will be framed in with 2x4s or 2x6s and the dry walled.

I have two main questions to chew on:

1. the "fixed" dimensions are the length, roughly 13' (L) and height which is 8' (H) from floor to rafters. I will loose a bit of each due to treatments: carpet or hardwood, drywall or drop ceiling. The width I can take is about 10' max (internal - wall to wall). I don't want to choose a size that throws the modes off too bad to start with so I'm looking for some suggestions here (compromise). From there I hope I can correct as much as possible with treatments, listener position and speaker placement. []

2. The cement floor appears to be a blessing or curse depending who you ask or what you read. I wonder if I would benefit from giving up a little, overall room volume to add a platformed floor to increase bass response (shake)? Should I stick carpet or go to hardwood?

I'm asking Klipsch folks because you know the speakers and how important the Forte II's passive woofer is to its overall sound success and the posts I've read have yielded many ideas and proven to be very informative.

This is a first step as the carpender is in the wings. I've got some ideas on DIY diffusion (thanks DrWho) with masonite panels and bookshelves and I know I'll need to come up with some bass trapping ideas and might as well incorporate them as the room is being constucted. I don't have the funds or equipment to make this a super room but with your help I bet I will fair pretty well.

Your help in appreciated.

JJ

[michael hurd]

I would start with the absolute maximum size you can, because adding items quickly makes the room smaller. Can you place the speakers on the long ( 13' ) wall?

The cement floor can be a good thing, as it is reflective, and typically increases bass response. However, it is also very good at reflecting midrange and high frequency energy as well, when it is bare. You could use a subfloor, decked in plywood, but this eats up precious height.

I don't know what the soil and drainage is like, but you want to make sure that you are not going to have any incidents, like damaged equipment from flooding. Make sure the sump pump is working, and check it regularly.

An alternative to the 2x4 deck, with plywood on top is a relatively new product, used here in Canada. It is called DRI-core, and features an expanded polyethylene base bonded to oriented strand panels. Available at most home improvement stores here like Home Depot.

http://www.dricore.com/en/ewhat.htm

They are 7/8" thick, and come in panels aproximately 2 feet x 2 feet. This also acts as an insulation, keeping the wood from ever touching the concrete, no moisture / mold can grow. The bottom looks like the bottom of an egg carton, IE: convoluted, allowing airflow underneath the subfloor system.

It is installed, leaving a 1/4" gap all the way around to allow for expansion / contraction of the panels, similar to laminate flooring. The surface must be fairly level before installation, if needed you could scarify and relevel the cement.

You could lay a wood laminate floor on top with a throw rug, carpet with a pad, etc. A finished floor with flooring material could be 1 1/2" thick vs. over 4 3/4" with conventional construction.

With a carpet, you could lift it up, and have an access to items such as floor drains, if you cut a panel and install a lift-out flush piece.

Never ever lay a wood floor directly on top of cement, this will result in buckling and mold, as the warm wood meets the cold cement, will result in moisture forming.

Owning horn loudspeakers is a good thing in a room such as this, you have a controlled dispersion pattern, as opposed to direct radiator midrange and tweeters, which do not.

Corner placement in a room like this on the longer wall is going to result in very little reflected energy from the mid/tweeter. I would tend to want more absorption on the rear wall / corners than sidewalls.

You may want to consider running flexible conduit in the walls and pulling wires for more speakers or CATV / phone, etc, since this is new construction. Very inexpensive to do now, a PITA in the future.

Hopefully this gives you some ideas to start planning.

[michael hurd]

Hmm, didn't know that they the DRI-core panels were produced in the Kruger mill in Longlac, On, that is only a few hours away from me.

http://www.dricore.com/en/ecompany.htm

http://www.kruger.com/english/D_ForestWood/Mill_Longlac_A.html

[westcott]

I have concrete floors with Berber carpet over the top of it, as well and decided to float\isolate the floor.

WOW!!! What a difference it made. Granted, my room is larger than your and has an open architecture but if you are a DIY'er, you can save some money and get great results. I put Vermont Maple flooring over the top of it.

[formica]

I have an area in the basement I can convert but

it will never be a size that will fall within the accepted norms.

This is where I am looking for guidance. ... the "fixed"

dimensions are the length, roughly 13' (L) and height which is 8' (H)

from floor to rafters... The width I can take is about 10' max

(internal - wall to wall).

Do you have a drawing? It seems like it'll be similar in

dimension to your old room once it's finished, give or take a couple of

inches?? This space can't be combined with your old space?

Never ever lay a wood floor directly on top of cement, this will result in buckling and mold

I agree... and actually, I'm not too keen on any flooring laid directly

on a basement floor without knowing how the slab was poured.

It is called DRI-core, and features an

expanded polyethylene base bonded to oriented strand panels. Available

at most home improvement stores here like Home Depot.... The surface

must be fairly level before installation, if needed you could scarify

and relevel the cement.

It's very pricey per square foot though and, unfortunately, many

basements are purposely sloped to the drains. If the floor is

flat, you can achieve a similar result using furring and plywood in

about 1-3/8" rather than 7/8" but the extra thickness will allow you to lay std strip flooring on top.

In all probability, you'll have build it up further to level things out. My basement floor slopes about 2-1/2" over 16'.

ROb

[michael hurd]

"It's very pricey per square foot though and, unfortunately, many basements are purposely sloped to the drains. If the floor is flat, you can achieve a similar result using furring and plywood in about 1-3/8". "

Sure, you could use furring and plywood, but the Dri-core product combines a vapor barrier, also allowing adequate room for the concrete to breathe. Furring directly on the concrete is again asking for trouble, unless it has some type of a moisture barrier as well IE: plastic stapled to the sides of the furring.

This could possibly work, although the chance of making a small hole in the plastic arises.

There was a product used on Holmes on Homes, it is the same poly costruction as the dri-core backing, they used it on the entire floor, it came in a wide roll. I will have to try and find out more information on it.

Standard tongue and groove subfloor could be laid directly on top of the "matt" achieving the same / similar results to the dri-core product, which is vapor barrier and "breathability".

[michael hurd]

I was sure I saw them using this product on a basement floor, but the only mention of it is in season 2, "flooded foundation", where they used it up against a rubber sprayed membrane on the exterior basement walls, to promote drainage down to the weeping tile.

http://www.holmesonhomes.com/?fuseaction=contractors.showContractorsShort#BASEMENT%20WATERPROOFING

[johnsji]

Formica,

I do not have a drawing finished yet as I am still trying to get enough info to roll with. I have the house's blueprints but I don't believe they will give you any more information that I can with pencil and paper. The house is a tri-level and the new area is one floor down so the existing space cannot be connected. My system cannot be in one of the much larger common areas because of two problems: the kids want to touch everything and my "shrink" wants me to have an area I can call mine. []

I agree with your comment on gaining very little space over the existing room. [] The existing room (which I have drawings of) has quite a bit of duct work that has been dry walled. The ceiling height is 8' for a portion and then 4 or so feet is the duct work which drops the height down to about 7' and leaves a cubby in upper right corner of the room's long dimension. With the speakers in these true corners bass was really poor.

Turning the system around to the shorter wall, my back to the duct work, improved the sound greatly, yet there are not true corners in this position...a bi-level door closet is on the edge of the left speaker. DrWho has offered to help me solve this problem but my wife said take up some of the lowest level of the house and build a room with the corners and flat ceiling you want. So while the room is not a lot larger (give 'em an inch...), the controlled experiment should turn out better. [8-|] I mentioned 2x6 studs along one wall because of the location of the circuit breaker box.

Regarding the floor and water damage, I live in a gravel pit, mostly sand but understatnd and appreciate Michael's concern. The only window in this area had a small leak once because the builder forgot to caulk and weatherproof it. We added gutters and after they dug down and out about 4' and corrected the problem everything has been zen. There is no sump pump and the only floor drain is across the room near the hot water heater.

I like his comments on leaving the floor cement because would give it a different look than what most people see in listening rooms. I know a couple of artist buddies that could do wonders to what it would look like. I don't have that much equipment so I could always try it that way and go another direction if needed (treatments and such mounted temporarily); I really don't want to lose too much height and agree that adding things will make the room look real small real fast.

The speakers could go on the long wall hopefully reducing some of the anticipated reflections. I read about the rule of 38 and if I'm at 10' deep my listening position should be about 4' from the front or back wall (10' x 38%).

I appreciate the questions you've asked and the recommendations made. I keep track of all this stuff and just don't take your efforts likely.

Thanks again.

JJ

[johnsji]

I'm usually long winded, but westcott, how did you float your floor? [*-)]

JJ

[johnsji]

Thank you Michael. The links were helpful and your suggestions appreciated.

JJ

[DrWho]

Hey, sorry I haven't replied to your email yet...things are very crazy

here at school, but I should have lots of time next week and the month

to follow.

The best place to start would be with some diagrams of the basement (showing the room as it relates to everything else).

And just to throw the idea out there....you might consider building new

cabinets for your forte to give them a front-firing port. Since you're

building a new room, you could incorporate this idea into a flush-mount

scenario and then you wouldn't have to worry about making the new

cabinet look nice (as they will be behind a scrim). There are all sorts

of advantages to such an approach and they really won't be that

expensive either.

Btw, I vote for an unfinished cieling and then you can experiment with

wedging masonite panels inbetween the joists (to get you a bunch of

curved surfaces on the cieling). I think it would look really cool too

[]

[formica]

Dri-core product combines a vapor barrier,

also allowing adequate room for the concrete to breathe.

You do realise that is a contradiction?

Furring directly on the concrete is again

asking for trouble, unless it has some type of a moisture barrier as

well IE: plastic stapled to the sides of the furring.

You can find many simple ways to achieve this in most architectural handbooks.

There is more than one way to skin a cat... []

ROb

[westcott]

I ran Hardy plank strips (1" x 1") on six inch centers, nailed directly into the concrete over a bisquene like membrane material and glued to reduce the risk of water wicking through the nail holes. I laid 1" thick Corning fiberglass panels between the strips, laid pressure treated plywood over the top, nailed and glued, used the vapor barrier provided by QuickStep over that with no penetrations, and floated the maple flooring over that.

The Hardy plank is impervious to moisture deterioration and works well in areas that may be prone to moisture wicking.

This is overkill in some peoples minds but I have listened to rooms that were just laid with wood over just a moisture barrier and it was far brighter. Not a good combination with speakers like the Klipsch design.

I live in the bay area south of Houston and we have no basements, so water is not as big of an issue as it is for some of you Northern folk.

Pictures are available under "His and Her Room" in the new gallery!!! Yeah!!!!

Hope this helps!!!

[picky]

johnsji: Your basement project dimensions are similar those of my own. Our room is 10.5' W x 19' D x 7' H. The walls started with painted cinderblock and the floor is concrete.

I tiled my floor with vinyl resilient floor tile. Because, I too live in Michigan, I know what sometimes happens to basements and I normally do not recommend covering the basement floor with wood or carpet. However, the product Michael Hurd talks about is very interesting and makes a lot of sense if you "just have to" cover that floor with something other than tile. I have seen a very similar product to what Michael mentions that is carried at Home Depots around our area.

I installed a special, suspended ceiling which hangs about 4" down form the joists above. I used standard suspended ceiling hardware and Black, 2' x 2' x 2-1/2" Thick, Sonex Harmoni Melamine foam panels which made all of the difference in our room. They absorb 90% of the sound that hits them and take reflection (both sonic and light) out of the equation. This helps solidify the bass and it makes the mids and highs project straight-out at you. My ducts no longer rattle. http://www.memtechacoustical.com/illbruck/illbruck-sonex-products/harmoni-ceiling-tiles.htm

I did my walls by 2x4 wood framing with drywall. I also placed a thick, vinyl roofing membrane between the studs and drywall that acts as a sound-blocking barrier. It helps prevent the sound from penetrating the walls, hitting the cinderblock and the bouncing back into the room as a reflection. I was able to buy it locally at Home Depot for $39/roll.

Ref: http://www.gaf.com/Content/Documents/10812.pdf

If you wish (I didn't need them) you can also place sound absorbing panels such as Sonex Fabritec panels on the walls in strategic locations: http://memtechacoustical.com/anechoicchambers/fabritecwallpanels.htm

A place called Memtech near here in Livonia, MI deals with all sorts of soundproofing products: http://memtechacoustical.com/index.html

Please visit our HT site. Our small room may give you some ideas for your small room. Best of luck!

[johnsji]

Thanks Dr.,

No problem on the follow up. The time gave me some time to study some things and decide that I would rather try to create something new and better instead of investing a lot of time and money trying to make that cube work.

I'll get the blueprints and see if I can copy them in a small enough package or get out the pencil and paper and draw what I've got. It is basically a poured wall, concrete basement that is divided in half by a load barring wall. One side has the washer/dryer and my proposed room area. The other will be used for storage and contains the furnace, hot water heater and water meter. I will try to get it all measured and posted in the next couple of days.

I bet we are going to have more success with anything we come up with because we won't have to fight with the odd ceiling heights, cubbys, closets or 3' hallways leading to the room's door. And we'll have a bit more volume to work with.

The forum members have been trying to help over the last few months tame the mids in the Forte II's and combining all the ideas have helped a lot, however, I'm still sitting only 65" from the speakers (like the old Maxell tape ad). I'm looking forward to getting back...I can't imagine being 9' or more away from the speakers in a properly shaped and treated room. I know I cannot have what I want now but I can make the best of it anyway. It will be a great learning experience and there will be plenty of time for improvement as time goes by.

This is a bit off the topic but if you like folk 'type' music, pick up the CD from Amos Lee on Bluenote. While I am normally a rocker, this is a wonderful release that makes so-so systems sound good, and good systems sound great...I can only imagine how good the great systems could sound like.

I'll do my homework and get it back to you.

JJ

[johnsji]

Thanks Picky,

I stumbled a crossed your web site quite by accident and was thoroughly impressed. Great job.

JJ

[johnsji]

Overkill isn't always bad unless it's your neighbor's dog or cat. I appreciate your willingness to share what worked for you. I'm gathering as much info as I can before I start and I'm glad I received this before any construction/planning began.

JJ

[michael hurd]

One other thing to think about, if you splay the walls, you can reduce standing waves, in other words make the rear of the room wider than the front.

[johnsji]

Michael,

I've looked into that a bit, understand the principle and have drawn up a sketch as to what it the room would look like and how much space I'd need. So far the wife prefers a conventional shaped room because...ok, I didn't ask her, I caved. The jury seems to be out as to how effective it is, but isn't that the case with anything (The master handbook of acoustics / by F. Alton Everest)?

My car may need to be replaced and that will be the end of my project for a while and I'll have to suffer in my little dungeon longer. That may give the Dr. a chance to try a few things in there to make it sound better. Thanks for the suggestion.

JJ

[DrWho]

The concept that drives diffusion panels (like the curved masonite) is

the same concept that drives the splaying of the walls. The less you do

of one, the more you'll have to do of the other.

I would recommend setting the fortes up along the 13foot wall and then

using your 10 foot dimension as the depth. If you were to splay the

walls, the room would be 20 inches narrower in the front (the 1 inch

per foot rule, so 10" per side). Let's just call it 11 feet wide in the

front to make the math easy [] You could then sit about 6 feet back

in the room, which gives you about a 40 degree angle to the mains

(anything between 30 and 45 is ideal) and room modes won't be as

drastic at that position either.

If you wanted, you could probably get away with splaying only half the wall too.

Btw, you'll want to get some kind of flooring in your basement. You're

already worried about a harsh sound and a concrete floor will just make

it worse. Also, you probably don't wanna have a cold floor either...it

would suck to have to dress specifically for music listening. []

If you don't splay, then you'll just have to install more diffusion in

the room and look at sitting a good 7-8 feet back in the room. You

might wanna check and see what the woman finds more acceptable: angled

walls versus big round things on the walls []