Klipsch Ultras with LaScalas: The Window Repairman Was At The House Today. . .

[tidmack]

I was pleasantly surprised to find that my Ultras came in today. I spent most of the evening with a couple buddies cruising through dozens of CDs and albums (Ryan Adams, Steve Miller, Miles Davis, James Brown, Blackfoot, Marshall Tucker, Dr. Dre, Outkast, Johnny Cash, Neko Case, Alice in Chains, Moby, Eagles, Otis, Pearl Jam, Ludacris, and Uncle Tupelo to name a few) to see how these twin subs matched up with my 'Scalas. The LaScalas are '84s with AA networks (sold the AL's ) and all original drivers. I played around with placement somewhat and ended up placing a sub next to each 'scala cabinet for now. I'll play with placement more tomorrow, but I'm happy with where they are. Anyways, so my impressions:

First, I'm even more impressed with my LaScalas. I DON'T want to start another LaScala bass thread, but with the music I listen to I was pleasantly surprised to find that I'm very satisfied with the bass 90% of the time with the 'Scalas on their own. In many cases, I could barely tell when the sub volume was turned off (volume on sub amp not up far enough at about 10 'o clock?). I guess with all the thrashing of 'Scala bass lately, I thought I was missing tons of music without the subs. At least for me, this is not the case.

Second, these Ultras freakin' rule!!! For the 10% of music that I really noticed the difference, the difference was HUGE! I haven't even watched a movie yet and I can't believe the low end on these things. I've never heard my walls shake until tonight. BTW, crossover is set at appx. 60 and sub volume is at about 10 o' clock. Especially with bass heavy rap and electronic music, these subs are simply outta this world.

I have to get some sleep now, but I'll play around more with placement tomorrow. Overall, I'm very happy that the subs don't overpower the system. My goal was to make up for what was missing, not exaggerate what's already there. If anyone has setup suggestions, I'm all ears. Now, I can't wait for the Cornwall III's to arrive!

Jeff

[jbsl]

SWeet!!! I wish I had a big enough property to get those subs!! I have a RSW 12 but have neighbors nearby.

When I had my KLF 20s I put the RSW 12 in the right corner next to the right KLF 20. The bass with music sounded fantastic, tight, solid and blended perfectly with the KLF 20s.

Now I have La Scalas and can not put the RSW 12 in the corner. The sub used with the LS sounds boomy and does not blend very well so I just use it for movies. I have a spot behind my couch that has a corner so I am going to move the sub there and see if it helps the bass.

[IndyKlipschFan]

I hate to tell you, I (and others I am sure on here) told you.... BUT....... THEY ARE KILLER >>>>>

hahahaaha YES!!!! Another La Scala with the Klipsch KA 1000 amp and 2 KSW120 THX subs... Conversion!!!!!!

I love mine too. And you have it set for your situation too. Not the sub boom box feel but trust me watch a movie like Lord of the Rings, War of the Worlds.. etc etc with GREAT dynamics.. you WILL feel it pounding your chest and just smile to yourself and go.. THIS IS SOOOOO GREAT!!!!!!!

Congrats!!!

[tidmack]

I almost called in sick today to listen to music for the day! But, I can wait till later. . .

What blows me away the most so far is how much bass I guess my la scalas really have. I really thought I'd hook the subs up and there'd be this missing part of a song that now appears on all songs. Although this IS the case with most of my rap discs, 90-95% of my music sounds similar with or without the subs on. Granted, the added bass volume is there on rock n roll, but it doesn't seem like I'm suddenly hearing a bass note that I didn't hear before. I wonder if I should cut the crossover higher? I was told a good start point with lascalas is 60hz, but maybe I'll play around with bumping it to 80hz tonight.

jb, I have mine at each end of the long wall in my living room, next to each speaker. I tried the other long wall last night with poor results (same wall as my listening area). I even tried putting a sub on top of each lascala. although the bass volume appeared to increase, it was quite boomy and not what I was looking for.

[tidmack]

Indy,

I don't even have a HT processor, so I'll have to watch some movies in stereo instead. But, I can't wait to feel some bass!

I'm sure this varies from system to system because of preamp gains (is that the right term?), but how loud will this sub play? I had my sub volume at about 10:00 and I could get my music volume up to about noon. Anything louder and the 'scalas hurt my ears. Can I turn the sub amp volume up just to play around? The bass is ridiculous at 10:00 and I certainly don't want to blow them, but I wonder what they can take??

Jeff

[IndyKlipschFan]

I wonder what they can take?? Go for it..

You can ask Trey Cannon.. Trust me.. a LOT more than probably you can handle..

Like I said, wait till you get a HT processor.. Your gonna smile from ear to ear!!!! A lot of Pre amps have a different feel for sure. I have the Sunfire Theater Grand IV, if you can believe it, it is set at zero for the sub gain..... but the sub amp is up all the way and I have to turn DOWN the La scalas 3 db to get the right mix. (Sunfires MW oputput is like 6 mw and not ultra II's output 10 mw. I maybe off on this...... but was the explanation I got too.) All I know is it works this way.

If you want a perfect match, look for the "THX Ultra II" specification on your pre amp for your subs and never worry about it.

Like I said, I am just excited for you! Another convert to the La Scala THX sub/amp configuration. For people looking for a great sub for thier Heritage lineup.. This is a great match!

[tidmack]

I know it's kinda lame to keep responding to my own post, but my system is rejuvinated!! I buzzed through some James Carr, Cookie and the Cupcakes, Little Richard, Poco, Hank Ballard, and a slew of others for about 5 hours tonight. I tried about 5 different listening locations for the subs and I think I have them dialed in. I still have the crossover cutting at what I think is 60hz (not labeled on dial) and the overall volume on the sub amp at half. It's too bad dealers don't allow potential buyers to take these subs home for a weekend. I think heritage owners would have a hard time returning them

BTW, my listening room is less than ideal and I'm still tickled pink. My hardwood floors are a hassle for music and I have terrible corners. If anyone is looking to buy the ultras and wants to hear them first, you're welcome to swing by my place for a demo. I'm 20 minutes south of downtown milwaukee.

Jeff

[IndyKlipschFan]

Just glad your happy too.. 60 Htz for la scalas is about right.. I say + - 10 htz above the lower cut off rating of your full sized speakers is ideal... So witht he La Scalas at 53 ish??? 60- 65 would be about right...

HOME RUN!!!!

Remember, most HT speakers in the walls will only go down to 80 at best... So your blessed too. I think that is the reason THX set it at 80 anyhow.. (although I am sure they have some scientific reason, too, blah blah blah bs bs bs bs bs...LOL) I never got anyone who sais has La Scalas or even RF7's who would cut it off at 80Htz and be happy with that setting???? ... Whats the point???? CRAZY IMO>

[DrWho]

Well if possible, I would go with a 70Hz crossover with the

lascalas...that's where the response of the horn starts dropping off

and then the speaker is at least -3dB until 60Hz where it starts to

drop off fast.

Once you get your subwoofer position aligned, you'll want to invert the

polarity on your mains (aka, switch the red and black cables, but only

at the speakers). You should notice a drop in bass around the crossover

frequency...now have a friend turn the phase dial while you sit in the

main listening position - and crank that dial until you hear as LITTLE

bass as possible. This is pretty easy to hear and will effectively be

putting your subs and mains 180 degrees out of phase. Once you find

this point, revert the polarity of your mains back to normal and now

your sub will be very close to perfectly in phase with the mains. After

a little more volume adjustment you should have a near perfectly dialed

in sub.

As far as the bass in music...I could provide you with a few song

samples that will present you with the missing bass line that your

lascalas aren't reproducing. Give it a few weeks of listening with the

subwoofer religiously on too...and then go back to turning it off and

it'll prob be a bit more apparent. RIght now your frame of reference is

a bit off because you've been listening to a lot of music and playing

around with the settings. You might also have the subwoofer volume set

too low as well...going all these years without much bass it might even

sound "wrong" when set to a flat response...

[tidmack]

Indy,

We're like two little kids!

Who,

Thanks for the suggestion to get everything in phase, I appreciate it. What a great trick!

"going all these years without much bass it might even sound "wrong" when set to a flat response..."

I've been running my bass/treble controls flat since hooking up the sub and from your quote above, it sounds like I should be, right? W/O the subs, I always bumped my bass up a few dbs, but figured with the subs I would have to and set everything flat.

One last one for ya Who: While fine tuning listening positions, I tried corner loading the subs and I was disappointed by how boomy the bass got. I thought I remembered Ear saying a while back that cornering a sub can cause this. I know all rooms vary, but is the boomier bass I got from the corner actually more correct than when I have them on the front wall? My ears like the tightness of the bass when the subs are along the wall, but do subs generally perform better out of corners? (Does this make sense??)

Jeff

[DrWho]

Well the tone controls on most consumer AV gear are generally centered

around 100Hz and 10kHz....so the subwoofer probably isn't going to

affect much the difference you were achieving with the tone control.

With the Ultra2's, you'll have to crank the boundary gain dial if you

take the speakers out of the corner....I dunno which way to turn it

though so you might try reading the manual. It is actually ideal to

position the sub in the corner, but as you've noticed the corner

position excites a lot more eigentones. If you have the dimensions of

your room handy I could post a plot of all the offending frequencies.

By moving your subwoofers around the room, you are simply shifting the

location of the problem spots around the room - to demonstrate for

yourself, play some bass heavy music and walk around the room and note

how it's different everywhere. Moving the subs around can achieve the

same level of difference.

The fact that you don't hear these room resonances with the lascalas is

a strong indication that the lascalas aren't reproducing music at those

frequencies - but also that your music does have information that goes lower. I'm not

sure where your lascalas are positioned in the room, but I can imagine

they're near the corners? You are going to be extra sensitive to any

resonance in the lower frequencies because you have grown accustomed to

the damped response of the lascala (not necessarily a bad thing). But

now we move into the realm of psychoacoustics. I won't tell you that

the corner is more correct because what matters is what you hear and

what you want to get out of the music. I will however encourage you to

try them out in the corners for a bit and try to grow accustomed to the

sound. If the resonance is really that bad, then I would suggest

directly fixing the problem....which is the room and not entirely the

speaker position itself. I also wouldn't really be able to tell you which is more

correct without listening to your system with music that I'm very

familiar with. Do you have a pair of nice full range headphones

available? You should try listening to music on the phones and then

compare the sound you get there with the sound in your room. This is

probably the best and easiest way to see how your system is responding

to the music.

[tidmack]

Who,

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Thanks for taking the time to take a look at my room. I attached some pics in a word file, I hope they show up. (They didn't, so I've pasted them into the message). I have the speakers along the long wall of a 20 X 13 living room. The LaScalas sound the best in the two corners theyre in now, although the one by the door spends a fair amount of time next to the door rather than in the corner. Anything along the other long wall where the couch is sounds pretty crummy. I tried the subs along the long couch wall too, with terrible results. They too definitely sound best somewhere along the same wall as the LaScalas. When I had the subs in the corners, I simply put the LaScalas where the subs now sit in the pics. Everything sounded excellent, except the bass seemed boomier. The bass didnt sound like what comes from my neighbors Celica, but it definitely was boomier than when theyre out of the corners. To be more specific, it seems like Im better able to distinguish varying bass notes with the subs out of the corners. I thought I remembered someone saying (Ear?) in the sub forum that corner loading the Ultras wasnt usually a good idea, but Im open to anything. Lastly, I did not play with that gain control knob you spoke of while the subs were in the corners. The manual did say that knob has some effect on boominess, so I can try moving the subs back to the corners and adjust the knob a bit. Thanks again for taking a look and please let me know if you see anything that I should try out. Have a great night.

Jeff

[DrWho]

Well first of all, you need to use the file attachment feature at the

bottom to add pictures (we can't see the ones you posted in the message

body because they link to your harddrive...they need to be uploaded to

the internet first). You can upload one picture per post and it

automatically gets added to the bottom of the message.

Attached is a the modal response of your room - and to be honest it

looks pretty good. You want to have as little overlaps as possible, so

your only real problem is around 85Hz (moving to the long wall probably

helped a lot with that). At the same time you want dense packing (like

you see at the higher frequencies) so you also have issues at 28, 43,

57, and 71Hz - all of which weren't being as excited by the lascalas.

Btw, if you can't get the room acoustically treated, then you're

probably better off positioning a little out of the corners - like just

to the insides of your lascalas. I usually use the 1/3 rule (so in a 21

foot wide room, each sub would be 7 feet in from the sides). But my

experiences don't seem to line up with this simulation:

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

(which says to put them at opposite midpoints of walls)

The only problem I have with the simulation is that it doesn't take the

time of sound propogation effects into account - and the problem of

resonances that you're experiencing is something that needs to be dealt

with in the time domain. A super flat frequency response isn't nearly

as important as obtaining a resonant free system...

[tidmack]

Who-

My bad with the pic thing, I've attached a pic to this post, i hope it works. I don't think I'll be able to add any acoustic treatments, other than what's there. I'm sure the hardwood floors aren't helping, but I do have a nice heavy loveseat and sofa. My windows aren't treated heavily either, which I'm guessing isn't good. The only other treatment I would do is maybe a rug. Anyways, thanks for your input, you're a cool guy. Your suggestion about about the 1/3 rule is about where where the subs are now. Damn, I hope this picture uploads properly. When I have the subs in the corners, LaScala and a sub basically swap positions. If this one loads, I'll attach 3 more pics to show you all areas of the room. Thanks again for the help.

[tidmack]

Finally!

[tidmack]

the opposite corner

[tidmack]

The last corner. . .across from the "door" corner. Yes, I should have mentioned that this corner isn't "really" a corner since the closet and entrance door make up the corner.

[IndyKlipschFan]

Tidmack... Here I thought Milwaukee was famous for beer.. I think it is now your room!!! Gotta be like heaven for sure.. Congrats!!!!

[tidmack]

Indy,

Thanks again for the compliment. I had some buddies over for brews last night and they too were loving the subs. I took Who's advice and put them back in the corners and moved the LaScalas where the subs used to be. I'll try it out for a week or two and then move it back to see where I like them best.

I don't remember if it was you or Who that recommended turning the volume up on the sub amp. Great move!!! I'm absolutely in awe of these things, I've never heard bass like this before. Although they have a hefty pricetag, these subs are just insane. The best part too is that I have just about an acre of land, so my neighbors haven't complained yet!!

Who: I've added a couple more pics of the speakers swapped to give you an idea of the two configurations I'm toying with. Although I consider myself educated, I have to be honest with ya Doc: I have no idea what your simulation means! Man, I've re-read it 5 times and even studied your post and I don't think I quite get what it says. Based on the limited treatments in my room (light drapes, but heavier sofa and loveseat), do you think I'm getting more accurate bass with the subs in the corners or out? I know there will be some that say "just leave them where you're happy" but if one way is providing more accurate bass, I'd rather train my ears to accept that than the other way around. Am I approaching this wrong?

Both ways of sub placement sound great to me, but there is more bass when the subs are in the corners. After a couple more hours of listening, maybe boomy isn't the right word (when corner loaded) because I can still easily distinguish bass notes and there's no slop to the bass when corner placed. It's just a lot louder when placed in the corners. Either way, things still sound great-

Jeff

[tidmack]

Other side of the room-