Ok guys, need recommendations on DIY 15" sub components....

[chops]

If you take a close look, people who buy brand name stuff will recommend that system, people who build their own will recommend to build your own. Its really arbitrary and it all comes down to you what you enjoy. If you like taking home a brand new sexy speaker system, by all means, don't hold back. If you like to design and build things and appreciate the hard work that went into something, then building speakers if you for you. The betterness of either method is beside the point. Of course you can always build a better speaker system then something you can find in a particular store, and of course you can always buy a better speaker system than someones home made speakers. Who cares!

I'm right there along with you. Don't sweat it. Frankly, I don't much listen to anything colter has to say. I think most people on this board just agree with him so he doesn't spaz out and go running off somewhere. I on the other hand could care less if he does or doesn't. If people think I'm an A-hole for saying that, then oh well. Grown men don't "tuck their tail in", go run off for a while, then expect everyone to throw a pitty party for them.

Now you CLEARLY stated in your first post:

"I'm gonna be building my own 15" HT sub and wanted some recommendations

on how to beat the RSW-15 in performance. So feel free to recommend

some 15" drivers, amps, and sub box design types that would beat the

RSW-15. I am looking to build a sub for home theater use that has

really low frequency response and high output.

Thanks in advance. :)"

Nowhere in that post did you say anything about wanting to build a sub that will beat the RSW-15 at the same or less price or with the same or less physical size of the RSW-15. That is exactly why I do not understand the responses given here so far in this thread from most everyone. Even DrWho, of all people always talking about DIY is all of the sudden telling you to go buy the RSW-15 instead of building your own.

You may or may not have a limited budget. I don't know, however it would be a little more helpful if you did tell us in your first post how much you were willing/able to spend for this project and if enclsoure size was a factor or not. What size is your room? Some people have small rooms so size plays a major roll in the design, but others have really large rooms and they don't care what size the enclosure is, just as long as it sounds good to them. Other's have wives that tell them what they can and can't do as well, which I won't even get into that subject.

As far as going DIY, I'm getting ready to do the same thing myself. And honestly, I don't see "bettering" the RSW-15 all that hard of a task. The reason the RSW-15 has 2400 watts of peak power and all the extra EQ'ing is not only to have a flat response, but to overcome the super small enclosure that they cram that 15" driver and PR into.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with that kind of design at all. Yes, it is true that if you are trying to do a DIY sub to similar physical dimentions of the RSW-15, then you will most likely either end up spending more money or end up with a very lack-luster sub.

Again, if size isn't an issue with you, then you can easily and somewhat cheaply build yourself a larger subwoofer that will stomp the RSW-15 into the ground and not look back. You'll most likely have to go with at least a couple of drivers and a fair amount of power to reach the same output level, but then again, you never mentioned anything about reaching the same SPL output as the RSW-15. You did say you wanted to beat the performance of the sub, but to some (like me), that would mean better detail, control, extension and overall sound quality, not just max output.

So with all of that, answer these few questions in your next post (if you still want to post here) and we'll see what we can come up with. Heck, this might even help me out in my sub project as well.

Questiosns:

1) How much money for the project?

2) How big are you willing to go with enclosure?

3) How big is your room that this will be going in?

4) What are you actually looking to get out of your sub as for performance?

Charles

[colterphoto1]

"Nowhere in that post did you say anything about wanting to build a sub

that will beat the RSW-15 at the same or less price or with the same or

less physical size of the RSW-15. That is exactly why I do not

understand the responses given here so far in this thread from most

everyone."

I'll buy that Chops. I guess myself and some others jumped to the conclusion that because it was a DIY project, that cost savings were paramount. Sorry. I read something into it that was not there.

The answers to the thoughtful questions you posed will give some much needed input for some true answers to this members questions. If however the member is attempting to beat the RSW 15 performance in a similar sized cabinet for cost savings I'll stand by my earlier posts.

FYI, my self-imposed absences from the Forum are generally in order to free time to get paying work done. I really enjoy the Forum and my hifi hobby but sometimes it gets ahead of my work obligations. I am self-employed so my time is my own.

If I left every time someone ticked me off I would have left for good months ago. If a few members are jealous of my collection, lack of WAF, disposable income, etc. feel free to bash me. I don't give a F#@K. There's been an endless stream of members who like to bait people, I've outlasted them all. Thanks for your support.

Michael

[chops]

"Nowhere in that post did you say anything about wanting to build a sub

that will beat the RSW-15 at the same or less price or with the same or

less physical size of the RSW-15. That is exactly why I do not

understand the responses given here so far in this thread from most

everyone."

I'll buy that Chops. I guess myself and some others jumped to the conclusion that because it was a DIY project, that cost savings were paramount. Sorry. I read something into it that was not there.

The answers to the thoughtful questions you posed will give some much needed input for some true answers to this members questions. If however the member is attempting to beat the RSW 15 performance in a similar sized cabinet for cost savings I'll stand by my earlier posts.

FYI, my self-imposed absences from the Forum are generally in order to free time to get paying work done. I really enjoy the Forum and my hifi hobby but sometimes it gets ahead of my work obligations. I am self-employed so my time is my own.

If I left every time someone ticked me off I would have left for good months ago. If a few members are jealous of my collection, lack of WAF, disposable income, etc. feel free to bash me. I don't give a ****. There's been an endless stream of members who like to bait people, I've outlasted them all. Thanks for your support.

Michael

That's cool. I'm fine with that. But who's jealous of your collection?

And I wasn't trying to bash anyone, but I have seen the way you react sometimes to certain things said on the forum. And please, let's watch the language.

But anyway, enough of that stuff. Let's get back to the subject at hand and try to help a fellow member out.

[DrWho]

That is exactly why I do not understand the

responses given here so far in this thread from most everyone. Even

DrWho, of all people always talking about DIY is all of the sudden

telling you to go buy the RSW-15 instead of building your own.

Some of the responses in this post are in context to a few other

threads...like a $4k budget for a 5.1 system that will supposedly top

used heritage all around (leaving if I remember correctly $1k for the

sub).

I'm all for DIY but it also needs to be kept in perspective. If you

want to go with the same cabinet size it will be impossible to top a

commercial sub for the same amount of money. The only advantage of

going DIY is in the ability to go with a much larger enclosure where

the driver no longer needs insane power handling ability (but it will

still need to displace the same amount of air).

For DIY to even come close to the RSW-15 for $1000 you're looking at around a 16 cubic foot enclosure....and even then....

Anyways, that's not to say that you can't achieve a good DIY subwoofer system. But to claim DIY is always better for the buck than commercial products is a bit zealous and is the reason for the responses.

But talking in such generalities is really a waste of time...it would be far more productive to compare and contrast the performance of specific options.

[chops]

Some of the responses in this post are in context to a few other

threads...like a $4k budget for a 5.1 system that will supposedly top

used heritage all around (leaving if I remember correctly $1k for the

sub).

I'm all for DIY but it also needs to be kept in perspective. If you

want to go with the same cabinet size it will be impossible to top a

commercial sub for the same amount of money. The only advantage of

going DIY is in the ability to go with a much larger enclosure where

the driver no longer needs insane power handling ability (but it will

still need to displace the same amount of air).

For DIY to even come close to the RSW-15 for $1000 you're looking at around a 16 cubic foot enclosure....and even then....

I never saw anyone making references to a $4k budget 5.1 system, especially not the author of this thread. Plus, who cares if other members post comments in context to another thread about a $4k system budget? The author of this thread never asked or suggested that.

Who ever said anything about wanting to go with the same cabinet size or stay within the dollar amount of the RWS-15? And the REAL reason for going DIY is to build something you want, the way you want it, and hopefully to perform the way you want it to. There are no set rules for going DIY at all. So as far as I'm concerned, that last sentence of yours is pretty much useless.

That is just crazy. I believe you are praising that sub way too much in saying that the only way to match its performance is to build a 16 cu.ft. enclosure. I'm willing to bet money on it that the SVS PB12-Ultra2 sub would run circles around the RSW-15 without even working up a sweat. It has two 12" drivers, 1000 watts, and an enclosure considerably smaller than 16 cu.ft. I'm sure even Paradigm's Servo 15 would also stomp it.

I've built subs in the past that did every bit as good a job, and some of them even did better than the SVS PB12-ISD/2 I had. The Ultra/2 only provides cleaner, louder output over the ISD/2. I'm sure at least one of my DIY subs have come close to the Ultra/2, which means it also came close, if not stomped the RSW-15 as well, and for a lot less than the Ultra/2's $2k price tag and whatever the RSW-15 costs.

*Was it bigger? You betcha!

*Was it cheaper to build? You betcha!

*Did it perform as well? If not, then pretty darn close!

I'm not trying to start arguements here, I'm just trying to make a point. A point that a lot of people have seemed to miss completely. Is the RSW-15 a good sub? I'm sure it is, but I can tell you it's not the best thing out there either, and there ARE ways of getting similar if not better performance by going DIY for less, or maybe even more, but not to the extremes of having to build a "16 cu.ft." enclosure.

[DrWho]

I never saw anyone making references to a $4k

budget 5.1 system, especially not the author of this thread. Plus, who

cares if other members post comments in context to another thread about

a $4k system budget? The author of this thread never asked or suggested

that.

The author of this thread was the author of the other thread:

"Need speaker recommendations for a pretty big basement...."

It is in direct context to the situation surrounding his question.

That

is just crazy. I believe you are praising that sub way too much in

saying that the only way to match its performance is to build a 16

cu.ft. enclosure. I'm willing to bet money on it that the SVS

PB12-Ultra2 sub would run circles around the RSW-15 without even

working up a sweat. It has two 12" drivers, 1000 watts, and an

enclosure considerably smaller than 16 cu.ft. I'm sure even Paradigm's

Servo 15 would also stomp it.

First of all, you are listing commercial drivers. Second of all, show me a DIY subwoofer system for under $1k that will do more

than 19-120Hz ±3dB with a maximum continuous output greater than 121dB

when measured in a corner. Let's make it more apples to apples and

include the cost of finishing the cabinet too. I would love to know

about such a system - but alas I don't think one exists that doesn't

result in a huge cabinet.

And no offense, but you have absolutely no measurements to support your

subjective opinions about the relative performance of your DIY systems

versus that of the other subs in your list. The placebo effect is huge

when one builds something himself. And at the rate you push equipment

through your system there is no way your reference frames are staying

the same.

I don't claim the RSW-15 to be the end all be all subwoofer, but I

cannot fathom your huge disdain for it...especially in favor for SVS

that I know don't sound great (and I'm not commenting on relative

performance to the RSW-15).

So as far as I'm concerned, that last sentence of yours is pretty much useless.

Well that last sentence is a direct application of Hoffman's Iron Law. You should read up on it.

[colterphoto1]

"I never saw anyone making references to a

$4k budget 5.1 system, especially not the author of this thread. Plus,

who cares if other members post comments in context to another thread

about a $4k system budget? The author of this thread never asked or

suggested that."

I believe the same forum member mentioned this in a HT thread, title something about a HT system for large room.

Ah, here it is- and I bumped Blake's HT thread to the top. So please consider these two threads which detail his questions for a complete DIY HT system. Some of our thoughts and assumptions might have migrated over from our discussions on that thread. The following is a direct quote from a post on that thread:

"Thanks for the suggestions guys, and my budget is around $4000~.

I personally think the best route for me is DIY though, you can build a

much better speaker for a lower cost then with major brand names,

seeing as you aren't paying for all the overhead that comes with

mainstream speakers. "

And note that he has directly stated that he can can build a better DIY for less dollars, another earlier point of contention on this thread.

And Mr. Blake, I don't mean to condemn your wishes for a DIY system. We are just clarifying your points here.

Michael

[chops]

Yeah, that's it, the "placebo effect". LOL

It's not the "placebo effect" when I have three of the subs sitting in my room and comparing them side by side, and even moving one out of the corner to put the other one in the corner, except for my dipole subs.

Measurements, measurements, measurements, that's all you think about. Measurements don't tell you everything, and somethimes they don't tell you anything.

Those dipole subs I built a while back still rule the roost for flat, fast, natural bass all the way down to 20Hz. Of course, I don't remember what the max SPL of that setup was, nor do I care. I know they were louder and cleaner than anything else I have ever had in here, and most anything else I have heard anywhere else.They were both roughly the same size and the Cornwall cabinets, and they played plenty loud enough. The ONLY reason I dismantled them was because they took up way too much room in my small 13x17 room with my other speakers. If I had more space, I'd still be using them to this day, and I'd be inviting people over just to prove ALL OF THEM wrong about what those subs were capable of doing.

At any rate, we are getting way off topic here, so let's stop the little bickering, alright.

[chops]

And one more thing, I didn't know anything about his other thread(s) and budget, nor did he mention anything about them in this thread. All I was going on was what was written in this thread.

[colterphoto1]

And one more thing, I didn't know anything about his other thread(s) and budget, nor did he mention anything about them in this thread. All I was going on was what was written in this thread.

I understand your wanting to get this thread back on topic. Please recall that your first post on this thread began with attacking my character, not to help the Forum member who posted. I'll quote it for you: "Frankly, I don't much listen to anything colter has to say. I think

most people on this board just agree with him so he doesn't spaz out

and go running off somewhere."

Chops, just keep being defensive. ('and one more thing'). Does your statement in the previous post prove that you are still 'right' with regards to chastising our advice? The point here is to help other members, which we have been trying to do. Why did you attack other members who were just attempting to be helpful- with whatever information they had about the member?

Because you see, now that you have all the information, several of us now come out from under your cloud of suspicion and slander about our motives for our defense of brand name speaker components. Although not stated in this thread, we were trying to help this member on his complete system.

So a more brotherly response might have been 'I'm sorry, I didn't read

that other thread and know about his budget or thoughts about DIY

versus Brand Name."

The opinions expressed about this proposed system by myself and several other members here now stand on firm ground. Your attack does not.

Good day.

Michael

[chops]

The opinions expressed about this proposed system by myself and several other members here now stand on firm ground. Your attack does not.

Good day.

Michael

As long as you think so, that's fine.

Everything would be going smooth right now if people would have the common sense to let others know the whole story by referring to other threads or at least mentioning the specifics beforehand. Don't expect people to read every single thread on the forum and be able to jump right in on another thread while missing half the story. I'm not a mind reader.

So without the knowledge of the other thread(s), and after seeing the initial question and following answers from other members, I was perfectly in the clear, whether you like it or not.

[DrWho]

Measurements,

measurements, measurements, that's all you think about. Measurements

don't tell you everything, and somethimes they don't tell you anything.

Ah yes, I am completely wasting my time in college...

Measurements that don't tell you anything simply aren't good measurements.

And though I totally agree they will never tell you everything, good

measurements will tell you very specific important things. And they are

always telling you something.

Just curious, how much personal experience do you have with measuring things?

Anyways, measurements aren't the only thing I care about. In fact, the

only thing I care about is enjoying the music. But when something comes

along that doesn't sound right or heck even sounds different it only

makes sense to try and quantify what is happening. I personally find it

fascinating how unreliable our ears can be. The same everything playing

the same favorite song can be the best sound ever and also the worst

sound ever.

[TheEAR]

I agree with DrWho 100% here,measurments are very important and without them building subs and testing is like judging a musical performance with earwax stuffed ears.

People who do not like to measure the many aspects of a sub performance should not build DIY subs,unless working from a proven plan and using the parts listed.

[formica]

My 2 cents:

1) Yes, size IS the defining factor in economical DIY subs... (as

well as commercial subs). Compact subs with high WAF are the norm

in commercial units... but if you are willing to trade size for

better bass extension and efficiency, you only have a handful of

commercial models or DIY to turn to.

2) RSW are technically "midsized to compact" subs, while the SVS units

mentioned are substantially larger. There is significant cost involved

in reducing the size of a subwoofer. Comparing a mini Sunfire

with an array of Genelec subs would not be a fair comparison either.

3) Please note that when people mention DIY is significantly cheaper,

that is assuming the labour is free. If you put a price tag on

the time you spend designing and building one... you can count

yourself lucky to have gotten a contract to build a sub with a client

you know will pay.

4) Subwoofers are amongst the easiest DIY speaker projects... so

you can achieve good results in a design which adapts specifically to

your needs / compromises. It need not look like a refrigerator

sitting in the corner of your room.

So back to the initial questions... what's the maximum size you

are willing to live with and are you limited to 1000$ for drivers,

wood, amplification, EQ, etc...?

ROb

[dtel]

I agree with DrWho 100% here,measurments are very important and without them building subs and testing is like judging a musical performance with earwax stuffed ears.

People who do not like to measure the many aspects of a sub performance should not build DIY subs,unless working from a proven plan and using the parts listed.

I like DIY because i would give up more space in the room to save more money,but i would never try without a proven plan.

What the Ear said could not be more true,I have seen DRWHO try to help someone hear plan a diy sub and there is so many combinations of box sizes ,ports, pr,and points it could be tuned to, and thats just with one drivers specs. Without measurments you would be lucky to end up sounding like the average car sub booming along.

[billyjoe72]

Easy guys. Play nice. All I can say is Dr. Who and Jay helped me design a DYI sub based on specs and design plans. Theory mostly I would say. But theory based on mathmatical measurements. I haven't done any measurements on the output yet because Rat shack around me doesn't have any meters, and I haven't looked elsewhere. But I can tell you it out performs anything I have ever had. I spent roughly $825 plus time. I agree with formica. Time is an expensive part of the build. I consider it free for me because woodworking is a hobby I enjoy. I would have to say shop time was probably around 60 hours or so total. That's a guess. That would add up to alot. I know it's not the greatest sub in the world but it's mine and I built it thanks to some folks around here with more knowledge about the subject than myself. I smile everytime I hear it spit out an explosion or a footstep from a giant creature from outerspace. Now design this man a sub.[]

toodles

P.S. DrWho even named it.

[Bill Cain]

Easy guys. Play nice. All I can say is Dr. Who and Jay helped me design a DYI sub based on specs and design plans. Theory mostly I would say. But theory based on mathmatical measurements. <snip> I smile everytime I hear it spit out an explosion or a footstep from a giant creature from outerspace. Now design this man a sub.[]

toodles

P.S. DrWho even named it.

Sounds like what we need are:

1) Budget for components.

2) Maximum size of sub.

If DrWho and Jay481985 agree that the two are mutually compatible, the rest is Bullshit.

blake_mooney, the ball is in your court. Parameters, please? []

[colterphoto1]

"the rest is Bullshit."

gee thanks Bill.

[Bill Cain]

"the rest is Bullshit."

gee thanks Bill.

[] I done been lurkin'.... I didn't want to be a target. LOL

I was watching the thread, noting the same stuff going on as on the Bose Wave thread. I didn't want to say anything until you did all the heavy lifting. Thanks to you, DrWho, formica and a few others, you took the heat, wore down the whiner, the opening was there and I took it.

[] Always give credit when it's due. I only distilled what you guys already said.

I just hope blake_mooney will chime in with his budget and size requirements. It could turn into a good thread for the archives.....

[Bill Cain]

As a follow-up, to a private message I tried to answer through the forum, but the link did not work:

Include your email in a PM if the above did not explain it.

[]