Need Help Deciding Khorn X Over

[Me Loves Khorns]

I am brand new to this forum. I have been a Klipsch fan for years. I have khorns -1988-in the front and La Scalas 1980's, in the back, along with RF Center and sub. I currently am running the speakers with a Yamaha reciever, which sounds good, but...[*-)]

I also have a Carver 5 channel amp that I'm not using now. I am wondering how much improvement I would get if I used it to biamp the front? I have been reading this forum and its links to biamping, but am still somewhat confused. How do you decide which brand and type of active crossover. I've seen some from Marchland and occas ones for sale elsewhere. Has anyone else had good luck with a particular brand?

Also, is there much difference in the sound if you biamp with an active crossover vs. placing new passive crossovers in the speakers. Also, do the crossovers in the Khorns that divide the sound for the HF/MF ever need to be replaced after time? Mine are AK-2. The ones on the LaScala's are AA. Should I consider changing those out? I have looked on the alkeng.com web site. Do those make a good sonic improvement.

Thanks for your help on this, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.[]

[Daddy Dee]

MLKh

Welcome to the forum.

Sounds like you have a very nice system. I'm not going to be any help regarding questions about biamping and such.

However, what you mention about possibilities with crossovers is

something that I have some experience with.... not in a technical

sense, but in listening to several different crossovers in LaScalas and

Khorns.

One question would be... what's your budget? The Al Klappenberger

crossovers are fabulous as are DeanG's. These guys do some fine high

end work.

I have developed an appreciation for the factory spec of crossovers.

What I have come to consider is that vintage Heritage gear has had time

for the crossover caps to drift off spec and become resistive. Don't

know how yours would be doing at the young age of 18 years out of the

factory door. If the crossover caps have gone slowly south, the

owner/listener probably would not have noticed the slow process of

degradation, but will usually be astonished at the improvement of

simply replacing with fresh caps.

Anyway, it is not expensive to restore the factory crossovers to spec.

This is what Bob Crites (BEC on this forum) does. I have had the joy of

listening to some fine ALK and DeanG crossovers and I have enjoyed them

immensely. What I have also discovered is that without establishing a

base line experience of performance, as in factory spec, I could not

have a real appreciation for the differences between the sound of the

factory and the high end crossovers. Some people might find that they

enjoyed the factory spec crossovers so much, they felt less compelled

to jump into the high end.

I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm pleased as punch for whatever you

do to be pleased with your system. It's all about enjoying the

music. I offer my $.02 for what it's worth, with today's market

it is significantly less than what $.02 used to buy.

[Me Loves Khorns]

Thank you so much for such a quick reply.

I've been a fan of Khorns since I was a small kid, my uncle has had a pair for ever. I only recently figured out that so much could be done to them. So, excuse the simple questions, but...

Are you referring to replacing the passive crossovers that are attached to the speakers already? If so, do both sets on the Khorns need to be replaced. How do you get factory crossovers, from Klipsch itself? How much are they in general?

Also, say I were to get an active crossover... I would bring in the speaker wire from the crossover to the low freq input on the back wall of the woofer enclosure. However, wires then go up to the top part of the horn for mid/high. Can you simple bring in the speaker wire directly to the crossover in the top part of the speaker directly, without the signal having gone thru the lower part of the crossover. Is that how it would work?

If then the only signal going to the tweeter and squaker is the MF/HF info from the active outboard crossover, is the passive crossover in the top part needing to be replaced also for improved sound. Or, will the processing that has been done by the active crossover sufficient. I have a moderate budget, can't spend thousands, but am interested in improving.

Thanks again for the patient help.

[Deang]

I don't recommend passive biamping, I've never had any luck getting it to sound better than the coventional way. Going the active filter route involves substantially more money than upgrading your current passive networks -- which can bring a substantial lift in overall performance: Tighter bass, smoother mids, and a cleaner sounding treble. Before making a recommendation on which network, I would need to know more about your system, room, and listening habits. I've abandoned the cookie-cutter approach to this.

[Me Loves Khorns]

Well, my equip. is Yamaha RX-V3000 reciever, Thorens TD-190 Phono, HDTV cable decoder, Pioneer DVD, SACD, DVD-A, Center is Klipsch KLF-C7. Crossover on Khorns is AK-2, on LaScala's AA, Mitsubishi 65 in HDTV. Powered Klipsch sub.[H]

My room is rectangular, around 18-20 x 16. My musical tastes are all over the spectrum, from classical to rock, almost anything but rap. My phono collection is growing quickly, I love my Thorens. I also have a very supportive and generous wife who has actually been buying me all of this fun stuff slowly, over the past 12 years. I have 4 boys who also like to play X-Box 360 in surround sound mode. We also watch movies off of cable and on DVD. So, basically, I have a wide range of uses for the system, from sitting down listening to old records, to playing games and watching action movies, and everything in between.

My speakers do sound much better when played louder. When they are turned down, they don't seem to have as much definition as many cheaper speakers would, but when louder, they are great. Would making some changes help with that?[:^)]

Let me know what you think, and once again thanks. This forum is awesome for all of the info. [8]

[chops]

"My speakers do sound much better when played louder. When they are turned down, they don't seem to have as much definition"

Hmm... Sounds like the original caps need to be replaced at least. My CWs sounded the same way as you described until I replaced the stock caps with new ones. It was a much needed improvement! []

[Guest " "]

I am brand new to this forum. I have been a Klipsch fan for years. I have khorns -1988-in the front and La Scalas 1980's, in the back, along with RF Center and sub. I currently am running the speakers with a Yamaha reciever, which sounds good, but...[*-)]

I also have a Carver 5 channel amp that I'm not using now. I am wondering how much improvement I would get if I used it to biamp the front? I have been reading this forum and its links to biamping, but am still somewhat confused. How do you decide which brand and type of active crossover. I've seen some from Marchland and occas ones for sale elsewhere. Has anyone else had good luck with a particular brand?

Also, is there much difference in the sound if you biamp with an active crossover vs. placing new passive crossovers in the speakers. Also, do the crossovers in the Khorns that divide the sound for the HF/MF ever need to be replaced after time? Mine are AK-2. The ones on the LaScala's are AA. Should I consider changing those out? I have looked on the alkeng.com web site. Do those make a good sonic improvement.

Thanks for your help on this, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.[]

You are going to get a lot of suggestions from very knowledgable folks who have taken this journey for themselves and for others.

One of the things you need to decide early in the upgrade game is if you want to understand and learn as you go, or just pay the bucks and get to the end of the road right away.

You made a comment in a later post about your speakers sounding better at higher volumes.....there are many who feel the vintage crossover config of (type A/AA) sounds better than the later versions, and can do so with a lower volume setting.

[Deang]

Good. Now, are your Klipschorns on the short wall or the long wall -- and how far back do you guys sit from them?

Sounding better when played loud, and not sounding as good when played low -- a common complaint/problem.

[Me Loves Khorns]

They are on the long wall. I sit back about 12-14 feet, in the middle.

Also, I forgot. I have a 5 channel Carver amp that is not being used currently. I was thinking about using it to do the biamping for the front 2 khorns, and using the Yamaha to power the other speakers. That would probably give me great sound when listening to 2 channel phono, cd's, etc, and make them even more alive during surround sound.

[Me Loves Khorns]

One of the things you need to decide early in the upgrade game is if you want to understand and learn as you go, or just pay the bucks and get to the end of the road right away.

You made a comment in a later post about your speakers sounding better at higher volumes.....there are many who feel the vintage crossover config of (type A/AA) sounds better than the later versions, and can do so with a lower volume setting.

Do you mean changing out the AK-2 on the khorns for the type A/AA?

Is that possible considering there is also part of the crossover in the lower part of the cabinent?

Also, I would like to learn as much as I can, this stuff is really fun, but, I'm not exactly an electrical engineer, and am just starting on the "mod" quest. My wife has given the ole' clearance to spend some on this project, but, we have 4 kids and student loans, etc.....

[Guest " "]

One of the things you need to decide early in the upgrade game is if you want to understand and learn as you go, or just pay the bucks and get to the end of the road right away.

You made a comment in a later post about your speakers sounding better at higher volumes.....there are many who feel the vintage crossover config of (type A/AA) sounds better than the later versions, and can do so with a lower volume setting.

Do you mean changing out the AK-2 on the khorns for the type A/AA?

Is that possible considering there is also part of the crossover in the lower part of the cabinent?

Also, I would like to learn as much as I can, this stuff is really fun, but, I'm not exactly an electrical engineer, and am just starting on the "mod" quest. My wife has given the ole' clearance to spend some on this project, but, we have 4 kids and student loans, etc.....

Good idea might be for you to get some feed back on "changing out the AK-2 on the khorns for the type A/AA?" by starting a new thread asking which one sounds better " the AK-2 on the khorns or the type A/AA?", reason being is that you have a couple of issues...one is the path to upgrade what you have now by just modernizing the caps, another is the option of replaceing one or the other with newly designed universal gentle slope or extreme slope cross overs.

A lot of folks have been happy by replacing the older caps with new ones, and making a few other modifications....while others went with a newly designed solution and replaced the whole board.

[Me Loves Khorns]

Since I'm so new at all of this, how do you figure out how to change out the caps, where do you get new ones, etc... Is that something that is very difficult.

[Deang]

O.K., you can go in a couple of different directions with great results. It's a good sized room, but you're not too far off of the speakers. Additionally, you have LaScalas behind you, so your overall power levels will be relatively low even when you're loading up the room with a good deal of volume. If you were in a strictly two channel situation in that particular room, I would say you should probably run ALKs. However, you're in a situation where you can pretty much run anything you want. At this point, it just depends on how much money you are willing to spend, and you can certainly run ALKs if you want.

As you already know, your Klipschorns have a split network, with the low pass, or woofer section tucked away in the bass bin, with a connecting jumper to the high pass section in the top hat. You could opt to just upgrade the capacitors in your AK-2 networks, and leave the low pass sections alone. You could also do the caps in your LaScalas. This would cost $200 - $300 depending on you who you have do the work. My work is a bit more because of the parts I use. I think my labor is a bit more too.

I think maybe the Type A might sound too incisive with the gear you are running. Of course, that is just my personal opinion. I love building them, but I think the HF energy might be too much. The Type AA sounds better with some power behind it, with the treble sounding somewhat repressed at lower volumes. I personally don't believe either of those networks sound as good as the aftermarket designs if you're staying with the stock horns and drivers. For starting out down this road, I think you might consider one of the options below.

Recap both sets of networks and stay put for a time while you digest all of the stuff this forum throws at you.

Replace the AK-2s with the lower order version of the ALK that I build, and recap the AA's in your LaScalas. Yes, you would have to disconnect the low pass section of your AK-2s (cake).

Replace all of the networks with the lower ordered ALK, or ALKJr. You can see the ALKJr here: http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1153871851

Replace the AK-2's with the ALK, and LaScala AA's with ALKJr's. You can see the ALK here: http://www.alkeng.com/ap_xo.html

Both networks mentioned above are designs by Al of ALK Engineering.

[Deang]

Since I'm so new at all of this, how do you figure out how to change out the caps, where do you get new ones, etc... Is that something that is very difficult.

If you don't have decent soldering skills, I wouldn't attempt it until you develop them. My experience is that people always think it's relatively easy until they try it. You can get good enough over a weekend if you work at it using old parts/wire. Most find that by the time they buy all the tools to do it right -- they could have paid someone to do it. If you think you might be doing a good deal of DIY down the road, the investment in the tools is worth it.

[J.4knee]

I would replace all 4 networks in your KHorns and La Scala's with ALK's and never look back.

[Me Loves Khorns]

What would the ultimate difference be between replacing the passive crossovers on the speakers themselves with something like the ALK's...

versus getting an active crossover - external - and then biamping, while keeping the original passive crossovers on the speakers.

Would one give you better sound than the other.

An active crossover seems to cost about the same as a set of passive crossovers.

Thanks again to all who are helpin me out.

[DrWho]

I would highly recommend the active crossover approach, which seems to

be what you were originally thinking. With the right crossiver it will

allow you to time-align the bass bin which would be a huge step forward.

What kind of budget are you looking at? dbx makes some of the best

"system controller's" out there which would also give you some strong

processing ability to clean up some of the crazy peaks in the khorn

bass bin as well as some possible room tweaking as well (though I much

prefer to implement acoustical treatment to fix acoustical problems

than try to mess with the speaker).

[Colin]

I too can't decide between BECs, DeanGs and ALKs (though I heard Al's and they are superb!)

I am not really bi-amping, but I am running a flea-powered Bottlehead 2A3 Paramour monblocks SETs on the top crossover (mid and upper horns) and a 70s vintage 48-pound class A Pioneer M-22 dual monoblock (think mini-Threshold) solid-state amplifier on the bass bin. Against advice, I disconnected the top crossover network from the bottom cable connection plate on the bass bin and connected the two amplifiers to the two sets of outputs on my pre-amplifier.

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I love it. The monster Pioneer has great control of the bass (it sounded very similar to the Pass X250 when I used it on my walnut-oiled <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Cornwall 1s, with B2 crossovers, at low volumes). The sweet tubes have immediacy, delicacy, soundstage and imaging. A wonderful combination so far, though I will admit I do not crank it very loud. []

I understand that since I an running dual amplifiers, WITHOUT an active electronic crossover ahead of the drivers, each amp receives a full range signal and therefore clips at the same point it did previously, so I am not getting the effect of 4 times more power as I would with true bi-amping, where you divide the signal ahead of the amplifiers.

Since I cant solder for shit and have no workroom to try, maybe I should take the upper bin to Pro audio shop and the drivers and AK2 crossover connections unsoldered and converted for an active electronic crossover?

I am not sure about the time delay thing, I remember something somewhere about it pertaining more to cones that constant directivity horns

[TubeGuy]

I'm very familiar wit AA's, AK2's and Al's ALK's. Both the AA or the ALK will be a huge improvement IMO.

The ALK's have one advantage over the AA's in that they mate with single ended tube amps extremely well due their constant impedence to the amp. If you are interested in going this route in the future this would be something to consider. I use single ended amps, and chose the ALK's largley for this reason - and also because they sound great with any amp!.

You've come to the right place for information and advice. Be ready for info overload. You're going to have fun!

[Deang]

"With the right crossiver it will allow you to time-align the bass bin which would be a huge step forward."

So, you've done this with the Klipschorn and have heard the "huge step forward"?

I've heard active setups with Heritage speakers twice, and wasn't much impressed with the sound from either. I'll be trying it myself here shortly, so in due time I'll have a solid opinion about it based on my own personal experience. Right now, I see more gear, more wires, and a higher potential for ground loops and noise. I also can't for the life of me figure out how a layperson can pull it off without some decent measuring equipment.

Advice based on speculation is worthless.