damonrpayne Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 BestBuy had a BluRay demo set up in their store today, so I ran over to take a look. The player was of course the Samsung unit, the only BD player out that's not on a PC currently. The TV was a new Mitsubishi HDTV sporting HDMI and claiming 1080p resolution. <Sarcasm>Surprisingly, BestBuy had no knowledgeable salesperson to help me out, so I messed around to see what I could see on my own.</Sarcasm> The Samsung remote was was incredibly well hidden behind the TV. The only disc I could find was "Hitch", not exactly an audio/video masterpiece. It was sitting with the player looping the Hitch menu so I ejected the disc and started playing... 1080p: Despite both the TV and player and the disc claiming 1080p capability the BD player menu would not let me pick "1080p" in the setup menu. My theory: a lot of TVs are going to have HDMI issues, as we've already seen with HD-DVD. Load Times: Having heard so much hoopla about the horrid load times with the 1st gen Toshiba units I timed the load time from closing the tray until I saw a menu, roughly 40 seconds. Slightly better than the initial run of Toshiba players I think, but horribly taxing on my patience compared to my current El Cheapo Sony DVD player. For $500-$1000 shouldn't these players load faster, make me better in bed, and make my children love me more? Image Quality: Like clockwork the picture experienced a slight but impossible to miss pause every 10 seconds or so. Either this is somone's joke or this disc/player/tv was having major issues. Because of Best Buy's Johnny-on-the-spot crack team of super-helpful salespeople I wasn't able to find out if they had any other discs or if they'd tried this on another TV. Despite the crap some companies pull I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there is some issue with this TV/Player or Player/Disc combo. There's no way the world's first taste of BluRay is just an un-tested piece of shit that can't play movies better than my 1x CD-ROM from 1989, is there? I'll make another trip back to Best Buy tomorrow when the release of the BluRay movies is official and see what I can see as far as the playback issues. Yesterday I was a die-hard BluRay supporter willing to pay the early-adopter price but I left Worst Buy thinking about picking some other gadget to spend my $ on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I was in BB today and was able to watch the Samsung BD player on a Samsung 61 DLP that will play 1080P. The movie was The Fifth Element. The picture looks better with Superbit at 480P that Blu-ray at 1080P. The Blu-ray format has the following problems at this time: 1. 25 Gb capacity due to single layer limitation. 2. MPEG2 encoding which uses too much space to fit a high quality picture on 25 Gb disks. 3. No advanced audio codec is being used; disks are limited to DD (not DD+) or uncompressed PCM. The PCM hogs space needed for the video. 4. First generation bugs such as slow boot and load times. 5. A price double that of HD DVD with lower picture quality at present. The upside is that BD movies will sell for less that HD DVD movies. This may change soon. HD DVD prices MAY come down soon (in August) to compete. An LG player that does both HD DVD and Blu-ray may come out within the next year. Many folks would want to wait for better players, more titles and lower prices. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunburnwilly Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Thanks for the report . I'll wait a couple of years before taking the plunge . Not to hijack the thread but does anybody have an opinion as to which of the HD DVR's is the best ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay481985 Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I was in BB today and was able to watch the Samsung BD player on a Samsung 61 DLP that will play 1080P. The movie was The Fifth Element. The picture looks better with Superbit at 480P that Blu-ray at 1080P. The Blu-ray format has the following problems at this time: 1. 25 Gb capacity due to single layer limitation. that is a problem with blueray as the narrow wavelength allows only single layer.2. MPEG2 encoding which uses too much space to fit a high quality picture on 25 Gb disks. 3. No advanced audio codec is being used; disks are limited to DD (not DD+) or uncompressed PCM that blows. The PCM hogs space needed for the video. 4. First generation bugs such as slow boot and load times yawn..... . 5. A price double that of HD DVD with lower picture quality at present. The upside is that BD movies will sell for less that HD DVD movies. This may change soon. HD DVD prices MAY come down soon (in August) to compete. An LG player that does both HD DVD and Blu-ray may come out within the next year. Many folks would want to wait for better players, more titles and lower prices. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Jay, Sony made claims that it would produce dual layer disks that would have a capacity of 50 Gb. HD DVD does use dual layers to come up to 30 Gb. HD DVD uses the more efficient VC-1 video codec and DD+ for audio. Sony's use of MPEG2 is a major error, but was necessary due to the HD DVD launch. Sony has no authoring tools for advanced video codecs at present. In the future, I expect Sony to use MPEG4, part 10 (aka H.264) to compete with VC-1. In the short run, HD DVD is clearly superior. If Blu-ray get the yield of 50 Gb disks above 40%, there may be some competition. If not, Blu-ray has already lost the format war. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 But Guys, isn't this new technology more about Copy Rights protection than giving us better quality? That really seems to be the underlaying issue, they are losing money because of copies. Disguise it all you want, lost money is the key here, am I wrong????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 ' Money is the Key " you bet, Buckyster....[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efzauner Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 I do think that if/when properly done the new HD dvds will be spectacular. I also think that the real big money is lost to large scale copying and not hacking by individuals. Those who have made hundreds of copies of dvds for home use would not have gone and purchased them! I have also seen some pirated DVDs purchased in HongKong. What a laugh! These are done by someone sitting in the movie theatre with a camcorder! Does Holywood seriously think that fancy copy protection will prevent that? do you think people that buy that garbage would actually spend the $25 to buy a dvd? I think that a much better business model would be to sell DVD for $10 That way you buy it inseat of renting or pay per vue. I will not take long bofore someone in China reads off the raw data stream from a HD DVD and stamps copies, data encryption and all.. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonrpayne Posted June 20, 2006 Author Share Posted June 20, 2006 Update: I went back into best buy today and their bluray player was at the front of the store on a different TV. Whatever disc/player/tv issues they had were solved, as the movie was flowing by wonderfully. They still had "Hitch" on the TV though, so while it looked great a romantic comedy is hardly the thing to demo for home theter people. They needed to get some manager or something to get permission to open a different disc to show in there. I did some side-by-sides with the Toshiba for disc load times and such, if it wasn't $1000 I definatey would have bought it today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 I truly believe no matter what they do in the industry, there will always be some hotshot out there that will figure out how to make copies. Every time you make a copy,(in their minds) you are stealing their product. Dvd's or Cd's, it doesn't matter. That's really the problem, Joe Consumer in some cases, is smarter than the Big Companies, as soon as Big Buisness comes up with a way to anti-pirate, Joe breaks it down, and makes a copy. efzuaner is right about cheaper DVD's, if they are cheap enough, it's easier to buy than make copies. Why spend the money for the equipment, it's cheaper to buy. Here's a joke, remember the Macrovision scubbers for VHS tapes, they work on Macrovision DVD's, they are still good and usable, so don't throw them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay481985 Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 I have also seen some pirated DVDs purchased in HongKong. What a laugh! These are done by someone sitting in the movie theatre with a camcorder! Does Holywood seriously think that fancy copy protection will prevent that? do you think people that buy that garbage would actually spend the $25 to buy a dvd? I think that a much better business model would be to sell DVD for $10 That way you buy it inseat of renting or pay per vue. I will not take long bofore someone in China reads off the raw data stream from a HD DVD and stamps copies, data encryption and all.. . I guess you have no clue what vcd, divx, xvid, mpeg4, are do you? Think just like CD to mp3, its like dvd to divx, not quite CD quality but very close enough not to mind because its free....... Also the biggest threat is a advanced copy loaner designed for awards viewing. There have been a few judges that have been caught releasing them on the internet from an advanced dvd so the quality is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonrpayne Posted June 20, 2006 Author Share Posted June 20, 2006 I have also seen some pirated DVDs purchased in HongKong. What a laugh! These are done by someone sitting in the movie theatre with a camcorder! Does Holywood seriously think that fancy copy protection will prevent that? do you think people that buy that garbage would actually spend the $25 to buy a dvd? I think that a much better business model would be to sell DVD for $10 That way you buy it inseat of renting or pay per vue. I will not take long bofore someone in China reads off the raw data stream from a HD DVD and stamps copies, data encryption and all.. . I guess you have no clue what vcd, divx, xvid, mpeg4, are do you? Think just like CD to mp3, its like dvd to divx, not quite CD quality but very close enough not to mind because its free....... Also the biggest threat is a advanced copy loaner designed for awards viewing. There have been a few judges that have been caught releasing them on the internet from an advanced dvd so the quality is good. That's one of the facts they keep quiet. Its the Hollywood insiders just as much as the eye-patch-wearing parrot-on-the-shoulder, peg-legged content pirates. They can't even keep "their own" from stealing content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Software piracy is a major issue in Hollywood. It nearly ruined the music business, so they want to avoid the problem with movies. Blu-ray has more robust copy protection, so it has more studio support than HD DVD. If no one loses a copy of the encrytion key as happened to SD DVD, Blu-ray encryption could last a long time. However, Blu-ray is way behind on development of the rest of the technology. They have been blowing a lot of smoke about superior technology, but cannot manufacture dual layer disks yet and have no advanced video or audio codecs in use yet. Hitch is the only movie that Blu-ray has out that can be shown on an in-store display. Fifth Elemnet was supposed to be their main launch title, but the picture is so bad that no one would buy the machine. When Sony launches in August, there may be a better ability to compete. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay481985 Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Software piracy is a major issue in Hollywood. It nearly ruined the music business, so they want to avoid the problem with movies. Blu-ray has more robust copy protection, so it has more studio support than HD DVD. If no one loses a copy of the encrytion key as happened to SD DVD, Blu-ray encryption could last a long time. However, Blu-ray is way behind on development of the rest of the technology. They have been blowing a lot of smoke about superior technology, but cannot manufacture dual layer disks yet and have no advanced video or audio codecs in use yet. Hitch is the only movie that Blu-ray has out that can be shown on an in-store display. Fifth Elemnet was supposed to be their main launch title, but the picture is so bad that no one would buy the machine. When Sony launches in August, there may be a better ability to compete. Bill The piracy did not kill the music business.... There are even valid studies that claim that the music industry profits from fans downloading the cd first and then buying the cd that they liked. Before Napsters and Kazaa, people would buy cds or have friends that had the cds and record them to cassette tapes, a very slow and labourous task. The fact that the music industry did not care should be important. Now that there is a quicker method you will go ape but not before? Also you are legally allowed one copy of any medium so long as it is meant to be a copy of the original to keep as long as you want. This was due to Sony fighting to release the vhs recorder that the entertainment industry "thought would be the doom of the industry" which is definitely not true at all.... Also the music industry has shown its own faults, now that Apple Itunes and other legal venues allow you to download music for 99 cents or so and the industry is still profiting, this was in contrast to the statements made by the RIAA that without selling the entire cd the music business would be out of business. The whole debate about actually owning the music is whole nother issue! And the best issue I find hilarious with the Music industry is now that class action lawsuits are being settled or won, people are getting money back from the RIAA for the sheer fact that they "price gouged" honest consumers during the same time Napster was big. This was when they purposely set a price qute of around 18 dollars a new cd. No wonder when growing up I did not buy a single CD until the age of 16, I didn't have a computer capable of downloading music. I just lived without music until then. PS When the RIAA goes out to set examples by suing certain individuals and sue an elderly woman that they claims she has Kanye West on her computer, that is crossing the line..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Jay, It looks like I hit a nerve. Your position is the standard rationalization of folks that make copies NOT allowed by the fair use exception to the copyright statutes. Time Warner sold its music division. The reason was lack of profitability due to the fact that few younger Americans actually buy music on CDs; they illegally copy it the music onto MP3s etc.. Steven Jobs saved the music industry much the same way he saved Apple. He created a reason to buy Macs and he created the iPod which in turn sells the music that goes on it. If it wasn't for the iPod, the music industry would be dead. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay481985 Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 I'm not at all opposed to the fact of buying music. I am apolled at the fact that there is so much good music not being broadcasted through the right stations. At first the RIAA frought the fact that online radio is evil. I find online radios my link to finding new and interesting music that normal radio will not broadcast due to the not profitable category. I remember field of dreams where "If you build it they will come" mentality. That is why there are alot more internet radios on the web now due to the unique genre they play that captures the niche market that is so underrepresented in the traditional radio. Too much is it nowawaydays to make music and movies for profitability and not for the love of the art. Like many people reasoning why people are not going to the movies, the fact is the movie producers and music producers are only seeking money profitability and stopped making quality music. It is like Klipsch, Klipsch has a niche market with the Heritage line and has very devoted people that will do anything to promote the Heritage line so much so that Ebay has niche sellers and bogus sellers trying to cash in on it. Notice cash in, Klipsch must be doing something right with their Heritage line. I mean I will pay for a good cd, I will pay but the fact that I don't wanna go in blind is something else. The movie industry heavily broadcasts on the tv networks of movies giving a taste of what the movie is. But the major point of movies are they are to really be watch a few times, as opposite, music is meant to be heard many more times than any movie. I understand movies cost 10 dollars a ticket and 20-30 dollars a dvd but with music, I cannot understand the fact that any cd should cost more than lets be reasonable and say 13 dollars a cd at most. Itunes is 99 cents each and most albums are around 13 dollars. Hence when I buy cds I usuauly will buy them only if I see a good sale or its their first week with the cd discounted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 The HD-DVD player looked MUCH better, no question. I am doubting BR will be that special unless the Samsung just sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Blu-ray needs to get the dual layer disks out if they want to compete. The MPEG-2 video codec requires the additional space. Alternatively, Blu-ray needs to use either VC-1 or MPEG-4 (H.264) for video compression. High definition movies are all about picture quality and the quality is not there yet for Blu-ray. Nobody wants to pay $1,000 for a machine with a so-so picture. The AVS forum sentiment seems to be the Blu-ray has lost round one in the format war. All of the pre-release trash talk by Sony has added to the disapointment. Sony may have lost some credibility. If their own machine gives a better picture with the same movies that look like crud on the Samsung, they can get back in the game. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 I just went by the Worst Buy here in F'burg. I did not see the Blu-Ray unit setup, but I was watching the first part of Phantom of the Opera on a Toshiba HD-DVD unit hooked up to a Sony SRXD high-def TV. I'll admit, I was very impressed. The color and detail in the costumes was incredible. Thankfully, they had it setup with Klipsch SF-3 and the matching center. They were using Yamaha reciever (did not see what model). It sounded incredible (despite the somewhat less than ideal environment). I was also at Tweeter and they also had a Toshiba HD-DVD unit, but this time, they were showing Serenity. The detail in the ships was unbelievable, especially on the 72-inch Sony TV they were using. To bad they were only running the audio through the TV's in-built speakers. I told the sales man that they need to go hook up a pair of Polk LSi speakers or something to that thing! I don't know, though. It would be nice to eventually get a High-Def DVD unit. However, I've gotten disenchanted with the next "Gee-Whiz" technology that comes down the pike but never seems to pan out. Case in point - SACD and DVD-Audio. So far, it looks like HD-DVD seems to be winning. I am still playing the "wait and see" game with this one, especially to see how much content eventually comes out in one or both of these formats to make it worthwhile to actually buy a High-Def DVD unit. Here is some interesting reading that I found on the internet via Digg.com: Ten Reasons Why High-Def DVD Will Fail. Toshiba losing about $200 for each HD-DVD player sold. ExtremeTech review of Pioneer Blu-Ray burner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98_1LE Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 The piracy did not kill the music business.... There are even valid studies that claim that the music industry profits from fans downloading the cd first and then buying the cd that they liked.That study does not make it legal, nor does all the BS claims. The issue here is intelectual property, plain and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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