Does size really matter ...?

[tychicum]

Since beefing up the speakers and moving some furniture around over the last month or so ... it was time to go over the settings in the Amp.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I paced off the distance to the various speakers and was all prepared to enter them when I came across the question ... "Large or Small"? When it comes to the Klipsch SS-3 surrounds I don't actually know the proper answer ...

My fronts are Klipsch Chorus II ... my rear speakers are Klipsch Chorus I ... each of these weigh in at 90 pounds. One would obviously say that they are "large".

My Center is custom built and it isn't a lightweight either. I would say maybe 50 pounds or more. I would say that it is obviously "large" as well.

But my Klipsch SS-3 Surrounds are suspended from the wall and if I recall they are only about 15 pounds each. They do have a couple of quite capable horns each ... and a 5 or 6 inch "woofer" ... but relative to the other speakers they are what one would have to describe as "small".

But in terms of Amp settings parlance ... should they be set to "Large" or Small"?

If I set them to "small" does that "shift" the bass which normally might be sent to those locations elsewhere ... perhaps the rears?

For background purposes my Amp is a Sony STR-DA-5000ES

[Professor.Ham.Slap]

The opinions on this may vary by who you talk to, but generally

speaking, the consensus seems to be that all your speakers should be

set to small. Basically what happens is the reciever will send any of

the lower information to the subwoofer based on the crossover point you

set (on an average, 80hz seems to be a pretty safe bet as it is the THX

standard). For example, I run RF-7's, RS-7's and an RC-64 which are all

set to small. My RSW then takes all the lower information with no

problem. A possible negative to this setup arises if your subwoofer

isn't up to the challenge of cleanly playing the extra information... a

good example would be the KSW line of subs, they tended to flutter

uncontrollably if presented with too much bass information if I

remember correctly.

Re-reading your post though, I noticed you didn't mention a sub. If you

do not yet own one, then yes, leave your floorstanders as large but I'd

probably set those SS-3's as small. In the whole scheme of things, they

can't play very low on their own. And of course, YMMV

[DrWho]

What kind of subwoofer are you running?

You might want to give this a read as it discusses the large/small issue:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/5/742693/subsettings.pdf

For the sake of stating the obvious, the large/small issue is

completely dependant on your subwoofer configuration. A speaker set to

small sends all information below the crossover to the subwoofer. A speaker set to large ignores the crossover.

[Guest " "]

""But in terms of Amp settings parlance ... should they be set to "Large" or Small"?

If I set them to "small" does that "shift" the bass which normally might be sent to those locations elsewhere ... perhaps the rears?""

Answer to your question, changing from large or small does not shift the low band material from one speaker to another. Meaning, if you set all your speakers to small, and set the rears to larger, the rears will not be providing bass for your HT setup.

Other considerations,

there is not much program material in the low band sent to the surrounds.

The issue of large or small is to determine where to cut off program material sent to your speakers, and what to send to your sub.

If you use the "small" setting, the assumption is that you are using a sub.

[tychicum]

Sorry ... I should have mentioned the Sub ... <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I have a Polk 505 (a 12 inch) which is not their top of the line ... but does a respectable job.

I mean it doesn't need to be a behemoth subwoofer when I have 4 Klipsch 15 inch woofers in my floor standing Chorus speakers ... When the cannon fire starts in the 1812 Overture there is no mistaking them for pop-guns with or without a subwoofer.

Hey how about the reverse ... if I lie to my Amp and say there is no subwoofer does that push more low-end toward the fronts and rears? They are quite capable ... Or does that just turn off all signals from heading down the LFE wire?

I see a number of experiments in my future ...

[tychicum]

""But in terms of Amp settings parlance ... should they be set to "Large" or Small"? If I set them to "small" does that "shift" the bass which normally might be sent to those locations elsewhere ... perhaps the rears?"" Answer to your question, changing from large or small does not shift the low band material from one speaker to another. Meaning, if you set all your speakers to small, and set the rears to larger, the rears will not be providing bass for your HT setup..

Now that pops one of my misconceptions ...

[DrWho]

I too have Chorus II's and have powered them with all sorts of amps (even 1000W pro amps)...

Despite them having 15" woofers, they simply don't dig very low. Their

big size keeps a high efficiency (101dB) and they drop like a rock

below 40Hz. They're powerful and clean as all heck above 40Hz, but you

haven't experienced real bass until you've heard solid response down to

20Hz and below []

There are two things involved with the subwoofer...there is the LFE

which is the .1 in the 5.1 and then there is the redirection of sound

below the crossover point. They are two seperate signals.

The LFE channel always gets sent to the subwoofer no matter what unless

you tell the reciever there is no subwoofer. In which case the mains

are forced to large and the LFE channel gets rerouted to the mains.

Another option a lot of recievers have is to send the LFE signal to

both the subwoofer and mains. You would want to do this when you have

your mains set to large and have the crossover dialed in on the sub to

fill in just below where the mains cut off. In all other instances you

want the crossover on the subwoofer bypassed (or turned up as high as

it will go).

The second signal is that from the crossover output. Any speaker set to

small will have all information below the crossover point redirected to

the subwoofer channel. If you have an 80Hz crossover (recommended), but

have your mains set to large and the LFE to Sub+Main then the 80Hz

information also gets sent to the mains as well. This is to prevent

holes in the frequency response from the crossover implemented on the

subwoofer as just mentioned earlier.

For what it's worth, the canons on the 1812 overture aren't exactly a

good test for the bass response of a system. Most of the energy resides

in the 40Hz region which isn't that low (in the grand scheme of things).

In the ideal world I would recommend you get a much more potent stereo

subwoofer configuration and run your mains as small. But in your

current configuration I would run your mains as large, everything else

as small, dial your sub to fill in where the mains poop out (~40Hz

crossover on the sub, 80Hz on the reciever) and then set your reciever

to send the LFE to both the mains and the sub. And then the only thing

I'd experiment with is setting your rear Chorus I's to large -

depending on your room acoustics setting them to large may increase or

decrease the bass response depending on the relative phases at those

frequencies. But chances are you are going to get more cancellation

than anything else.

[tychicum]

DrWho that is very helpful. I will try moving the crossover to ~40Hz

on the sub first ... and do the others in increments to see the difference. Thanks.

[fgarib]

tychicum / Dr. Who,

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm still learning about subs, as I just installed a brand new REL Stampede in my setup and am working REAL hard to get it going

Why would you want to set the crossover on the sub to be 40? Aren't you better off controlling the crossover of *ALL* the speakers from the receiver and setting the x-over on your sub to be the highest setting? Otherwise, aren't you setting yourself up for cascading crossovers, where the receiver and the sub itself will confuse each other about where exactly to split the highs and the lows?

I don't have much experience with the KSW line, but my REL is set at 110 Hz, and is tapped into the same signal as my mains, as well as a separate LFE connection. And my Lexicon pre/pro crosses the surrounds off at 100 and the fronts and sides off at 80. Therefore, the signal below 100 is sent from the rears to the sides, and below 80 is sent to the sub. All this while, since the sub is connnected inline as well, the sub is catching all the signals from the main below 110 Hz. Since the KG Bookshelves that I have can't go that low anyway, I find that, since the sub is tapping into the same signal as the KG's, the match is just wonderful.

My point is that if had set the crossovers on the sub any lower, wouldn't that create tremendous confusion in frequencies? Or have I missed something? Entirely possible! []

Fauzi

[oldbuckster]

Non technical answer here, try all settings untill you ears tells you what is best. I've been playing around with mine for awhile,Large, Small, large front, small rear, every combo you can imagine, gets old after awhile, ended up using Large setting all around, sounds best to me............I think getting sub placement more important to overall sound, as is crossover point, and last but not least proper sub volume control. Large and small settings just one part of the puzzle, it just never stops......................

[DrWho]

The idea for 40Hz has to do with the fact that his mains are more capable than his subwoofer for 40Hz and above. And the cascading crossovers is avoided by setting the LFE to Sub+Mains....basically sending all of the LFE and all of the information below the crossover to both the mains and the subwoofer, which gets around the cascading issue.

As far as your setup, I would not suggest connecting the subwoofer to the LFE AND the preouts for the mains. That is wrong on so many levels. And I'm not sure about your pre/pro, but I'm pretty sure the information below the rears is NOT being "sent to" the sides...that would be some pretty complicated circuitry to make happen well and wouldn't achieve much of anything. Technically, the information being sent to the sides and rears is the same - except for a few matrixing tricks that spread out the stereo image. However, DTS 6.1 is slightly different and both the rears share the same signal (no matrixing, but a dedicated 7th track is providing their input).

Another totally feasable option is to tell your reciever that you have no subwoofer and then run the sub off the main pre-outs. It'll work the same way as before, but on some recievers this is the only way to get the subwoofer working with 2-channel music.

[tychicum]

Last night I set the x-over in the Amp to 40 ... and on the Sub I set it to 100. The bass improved a bunch ...<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Next project is to experiment with phase shift and positioning the Sub in various locations. I'm not sure yet ... but I may be cancelling some base because of phase ...

Question ... how close is "too close" when it comes to positioning the Sub vs. listening position?

Right now it is too close I know it ... around 6 feet and it's pointed right at my right listening ear.

If I am able to move it anywhere (theoretically speaking) is it better to be forward toward the screen area ... or behind the listening position?

[DrWho]

In the ideal world I prefer to have a perfect stereo image, even with

the bass, but in a mono subwoofer application that really isn't

feasible. So the next compromise would be to have the sub located

somewhere between the front mains. In a normal room the mains are in

the corners so I usually recommend about 1/3 of the way in from the

side wall.

I have always found behind the listening position to be very distracting.

And then you know the sub is too close when you can easily localize it. The idea is to make it so that you can't tell where the bass is coming from - it just envelopes you in thick goodness.

[WolfsBane]

The idea for 40Hz has to do with the fact that his mains are more capable than his subwoofer for 40Hz and above. And the cascading crossovers is avoided by setting the LFE to Sub+Mains....basically sending all of the LFE and all of the information below the crossover to both the mains and the subwoofer, which gets around the cascading issue.

DrWho, to clarify (and if I read the Yammie's manual correctly), the Yamaha's for example allow you to set the LFE to both Main and Sub on the receiver. The receiver sends the full spectrum of low frequencies to both therefore bypassing the receiver's crossover. With mains that are capable of producing the frequencies above 40hz well, (such as floor standing speakers), it is better to have the mains handle them, and then have the sub roll in around 45 hz or so and handle everything under those frequencies. Basically, the trick is to set your sub crossover to about 3 dbl above the main's low frequency threshold in order to achieve a smooth transition between your main low frequency capabilities and your subs upper frequency capabilities without gaps or cancellations. My understanding is also that this is not as critical with surround speakers and to a great degree center speakers, because though today's receivers are certainly capable of sending the full spectrum of frequencies to these speakers, the movie companies engineer sound to take into account the limit dynamic range capabilities of your average surround speakers. In other words, you could set your surround speakers to "Large", but there are very few if any material out there that will actually send an extreme low frequency source to your surround speakers... I seem to recall somewhere that threshold is somewhere around 60hz or 70hz. Is this your impression?

[DrWho]

Really there isn't an ideal setup that will work in every situation,

which is why they provide the options in the first place [] Heck,

sometimes sending the bass to both the mains and the subwoofer will

result in less bass (phase cancellation).

Ultimately, you are always setting the subwoofer to fill in directly

below the mains. And by adjusting the crossover you are essentially

determining where the mains roll off. In the end you just want to make

sure that you don't end up with holes or overlap.

As far as surround information - I think you might be surprised by how

much low frequency content ends up in those channels. It's one of those

things you'd never realize until actually hearing the difference.

[kg5.5]

That's not the way it works on my Denon 3801. This is from the manual:

When the LFE+MAIN playback mode is selected, the low frequency signal range of channels set to LARGE are produced

simultaneously from those channels and the subwoofer channel.

What that means to me is that the bass from the large left/right channels are also sent to the sub, and the LFE channel is sent to the sub. Not the LFE is sent to the mains. The only way the LFE is sent to the mains is if subwoofer is set to none in the receiver.

[DrWho]

Here's an excerpt from the Denon manual:

[DrWho]

And then here's the Yamaha manual:

[98_1LE]

Wow, I recently was wondering the same thing, so I spent the better part of a day listening to a few tracks over and over with different settings for small/large (all my speakers are big), X-over on receiver, X-over on sub, sub level, etc., and made a noticeable improvement in the configuration.

At the end of it all the X-over on the receiver is set to 80Hz, and all the speakers are set to small.

[kg5.5]

Dr. Who,

Thanks for posting those! Looks like the Yamaha has a few more options on bass handling than my Denon.