KH's & subs / Help sought...

[arco]

Hi everybody,

Truth is that, before posting, I have read all posts in this topic. Nevertheless, I consider myself still in the dark...Maybe because my concern is to (try to...) integrate one or two subs in a music only system (you can see my set-up by visiting www.aca.gr/pop_coumpas.htm, noting that - with adjoining spaces the listening area is almost 900 sq feet).

So, here are my questions:

1) I can see that there is a number of subs that can do music and HT, equally well. Allright, but how can these non-horn designs integrate, both tonally and speedwise, with the bass coming out of cornerhorns? It goes without saying that my wife will rather loose her temper - to say the least - if I ever try to install something like 500lt Onken-type subs...

Contradicting the above, might be the fact that Ray Garrison is using LaScalas with a REL sub.

2) SVS and HSU subs you guys mostly recommend can eventually become rather expensive, if one considers the freight cost to Athens, Greece where I live. And, then, there is the after sales service problem. But I can surely find Velodyne, M&K, Paradigm, REL, Aerial and most other brands that are not of the "Direct from factory" kind.

Thaks in advance for your documented opinions,

Aristidis

This message has been edited by arco on 11-17-2001 at 10:33 AM

[TheEAR]

In europe you can buy REL subs for less,I would look at REL.Great sibwoofers and you can use a pair to get the job done.I am thinking about the new REL Q400E,it uses a very long throw driver in a sealed 16" cube cabinet.The amp is a 400W MOSFET type,the bass is tight and has plenty of punch.I think two would be plenty.

The REL Q400E output is just under the Sunfire Signature,two would give you the SPL needed to keep up with the large Klipsches(when the subs cant keep up your ears will hurt from SPL).

Since you have a very High-End system you should have the funds to look at the REL Studio III,even more output and bass to below 16Hz.Here too two should take care of any bass need.And I think one unit would take care of any sub bass problem.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[jdm56]

arco,

There is a lot to be said for "rolling your own", if you are talking about a very high performance sub, able to keep up with klipschorns at high levels. I would thoroughly check out this option. In the US, there are some good vendors of kits, plans and raw drivers for subs. Is that an option for you?

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JDMcCall

[arco]

quote:

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Originally posted by TheEAR:

In europe you can buy REL subs for less,I would look at REL.Great sibwoofers and you can use a pair to get the job done.I am thinking about the new REL Q400E,it uses a very long throw driver in a sealed 16" cube cabinet.The amp is a 400W MOSFET type,the bass is tight and has plenty of punch.I think two would be plenty.

The REL Q400E output is just under the Sunfire Signature,two would give you the SPL needed to keep up with the large Klipsches(when the subs cant keep up your ears will hurt from SPL).

Since you have a very High-End system you should have the funds to look at the REL Studio III,even more output and bass to below 16Hz.Here too two should take care of any bass need.And I think one unit would take care of any sub bass problem.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

TheEAR(s) Now theears

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Thanks for your input THE EAR,

I was also thinking of REL as my main "candidate" and then - surfing the web - I discovered that Vandersteen has a very interesting subwoofer (Model 2Wq) which could also do the job nicely and at a very good price. Any idea about this one?

Finally, I am still perplexed on the issue of integrating bass coming out of two different "philosophy" enclosures...

[arco]

quote:

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Originally posted by James D McCall:

arco,

There is a lot to be said for "rolling your own", if you are talking about a very high performance sub, able to keep up with klipschorns at high levels. I would thoroughly check out this option. In the US, there are some good vendors of kits, plans and raw drivers for subs. Is that an option for you?

---

Hi James,

Well, the answer is a big yes! I quite like rolling my own and thus I have found that DECWARE provides plans for an interesting horn sub. Problem is I am hesitant to proceed with that one, as I am not really confident about their after sales support (I know, I am already a client of theirs...).

If you have any other propositions, I would be really grateful to you, for letting me know.

This message has been edited by arco on 11-19-2001 at 06:40 AM

[TheEAR]

Yes the Vandersteen sub is very musical,fast and clean.

You may need two to do the job.

I would try them both home and compare.

If you want clean sub bass,as clean as it gets the Vandersteen would be my top choice.Heard one in a showroom,clean would be the word,and read very positive reviews,all noticed the quality of the sub bass.Its not a BREAK THE WALLS sub,its more for music then for BOOM BOOM fake HT sounds faked in THX or Mega THX super mega bass boost.

Check out Vandersteen and REL,you will be pleased.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[J M O N]

Aristidis,

You have the same problem I do -- finding a sub that can "keep up" with Klipschorns. This is not an easy job, and most commercially available subs are not up to the task.

The problem is in finding a sub that will have similar dynamics. Normal direct radiators cannot accomplish this without using many, many of these. It's not about output capability, it's about dynamics, and seemlessly integrating a sub with a horn speaker. That's where the challenge lies.

For home theater use only, you may be able to get by with "regular" subs. But if you're looking for a sub for music applications, then it gets tougher. If you don't have a sub that is as dynamic as the Khorn, then you will notice the "slow" bass. I believe that this isn't as big of an issue in home thater applications and can be "lived with". For music, I think it will be too noticable. That is where you either need to use a horn sub, or multiple drivers. Another option is the Servodrive Contrabass sub which I have heard about, but don't know that much about it. You can find information about it here:

http://www.servodrive.com/servo/cb.shtml

Antother option is to use a horn sub like the Edgarhorn. The problem is that it only goes down to 35Hz. It's also huge and heavy (400 pounds). I don't think there is a website, but here are some photos:

http://www.surfnetusa.com/sho/Blowout1.html

An other option is to use direct radiators, but again, you would have to have numerous drivers and this would also take up quite a bit of room.

I haven't quite decided on how I'm going to tackle this issue, but these are all options I woll consider. Price and size will likely be the deciding factors for me.

[forresthump]

Anybody come up with a scientific measure of "Sub Speed" yet? If not then it's all subjective, IOW opinion.

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go forth & hump the world

[arco]

Forresthump,

I tend to agree fully with Jmon. To tell you the truth, I dont have any scientific explanation on hand but I know from experience that different kinds of speaker designs, produce different kinds of bass. For exemple an B&W has a distinctly different bass compared to, say, a Magnepan. And horns have a bass of their own (I very much like, by the way...). It's not quantitative, its qualitative and has to do with speed, harmonic content and - eventually - other things. Fact is that the final result is easily heard and recognized, I believe.

[forresthump]

Ya transient response & dynamics. Wish we had some mearurable specs. Never seen any of those in reviews.

I hear differences in subs too but I think different people hear different things. That's my point, theres

no empirical evidence. A slow sub to one could be a fast one to another.

Besides, subs are all pretty slow

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go forth & hump the world

[J M O N]

"Speed" is not a subjective at all. This term really refers to how dynamic a speaker is. Someone once asked if Speed was really the right term, and I suggested that maybe acceleration (and deceleration) are better descriptions. In automobile performance tests, many times they measure how fast a car can go from zero to 100 MPH, and then back to zero again (0-100-0 test). For speakers, maybe the measurement would be to see how fast a speaker (doesn't have to be a sub) can go from say zero dB to 100 dB and then back to zero dB (OK, I know zero dB isn't correct, but let's just use that as an example). The faster a speaker can do this, the more dynamic it is.

Why aren't there any kinds of measurements like this? Well, maybe there isn't equipment available to make these measurements (?). But on the other hand, most of the "Highly Regarded" speakers reviewed in magazines are not horns, and if they made these measurements, they would pale in comparison to what a horn can do. Maybe that's another reason why these measurement aren't done. Besides, "High-End" magazines seem to place more importance on imaging and soundstage than on dynamics.

This is not something where one person will think one speaker is more dynamic than another and a different person will think the opposite (at least not where there are significant differences). Everyone can tell that a Corvette is faster than a Chevette. It's the same way with dynamics in speakers.

Dynamics are the biggest reason why I love Klipsch speakers (and horns in general). I also love live music, and that's probably why dynamics are so important to me.

[forresthump]

But I can measure speed & acceleration of a car. Why can't you give me any actual specs for something that seems to be so important? It's all subjective unless you can prove it

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go forth & hump the world

[arco]

O.K. let's say its subjective, but I believe that speed=dynamics (in a speaker...) is a commonly accepted thing. I love horns exactly for the same reasons as Jmon and so I can understand the meaning of his words. Objectivists had tried in the past to spread ideas like "If a turntable turns at exactly 33,33rpm, then it sounds automatically good" or "Two amplifiers used within specs, sound the same", but reality has proved them (very...) wrong. Maybe we dont know how to correctly measure certain things or we measure the wrong things, altogether. And please do not think I'm against measurements. I still use them alot myself, when I build things. But afterwards, i.e. during the listening sessions, the proof - as they say - is in the pudding!

[J M O N]

Maybe it can be measured. I don't know. There probably is a way to do it. I don't have a test lab, and as I mentioned before, this may not be important to the folks that do test speakers.

But just because you can't measure something, doesn't mean it's automatically subjective. If you didn't have the equipment to measure the speed of a car, you can still tell which one is faster by using your eyes. Likewise, I use an even better measuring device to measure dynamics than any of these magazines use in their test measurement -- my ears!

Specifications only mean so much. They can give you some information, but they do not tell the whole story. Specifications are NOT going to tell you how an amp, speaker, source, etc. are going to sound (granted, if there was an accurate measurement of dynamics, it should tell you which one is more dynamic, but won't necessarily tell you which one sounds better). Your ears can tell you the whole story.

[arco]

Jmon,

Coming back to our main subject, I had a very interesting discussion (in another topic: see "two channel audio" then "TS OTL's & Klipsch") with Randy Bey. He said that filling half the cavity behind the woofer with fiberglass insulation, solved the problem for him.He has no need for a sub or subs anymore, as his KH basshorns go really down, now.

I have heard about this mod before, but Randy is the first person coming out with such positive results. I think I will try it the day I will be in the mood to tackle all those screws again...

[soundog]

If your khorns are sealed into solid corners, I cann't see why you would want a sub. Adding one for LFE on DVDs makes sense (How much fidelity do you need for car crashes?) but for music I think a sub will detract from rather than add to the overall effect of khorns. Afterall, how much music goes below 35Hz?

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Soundog's HT Systems

[jjhaz@ont.com]

Sound Dog,

Has a point and one that I have experenced. My main fronts are cornwalls. I also have a KWS12 Sub. I found that my bass response for almost everything I listened to improved in both depth and soundstage by setting my preamp speaker selection to "No Sub" Thus as everyone knows the .1 lfe is sent to the front Cornwalls. This just killed me. I'v got a sub and I want to use it!! Oh well it's boxed up in the garage.

Jeff

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Cornwalls Main fronts

KLF-C7 Center

IW-150 Rears

KSW-12 200watt Sub

Anthem AVM20 Preamp

5 Adcom 555s all mono BLK

Toshiba 9200 DVD

Sat. / Mit. VCR

-----------------------

Project room

Genelec Nearfield Monitors with Genalac Sub

Alisis 32 channel board

Joe Meek VC1Q Studio channel

Art Power Plant

Roland R8

Wave/24 24bit recording

Aphex Comperesors

And so on.

[TheEAR]

ForrestBump,

"It's all subjective unless you can prove it"

It may be,it is real to many audiophiles so we dont need to prove anything to ya.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[forresthump]

Ya ears and the more you spend the better or "faster" it sounds right?

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go forth & hump the world

[arco]

Well, lets just put things into perspective:

1) You dont really need fidelity for car crashes, thats a fact. Another fact is that when we watch a movie our full attention might be centered more to the movie, than in the accompanying soundtrack. But if we try to use an HT system for music listening, then any matching problems between system and sub(s) will tend to come out, usually blurring things. Hence the statement that you would better turn off the sub, when listening to music.

2) Now, in the case of music listening, a full range system will invariably sound better, than a restricted LF one (of similar quality...). On such a system, not only you can hear the low notes of e.g. an organ, but you also benefit of a better soundstage and fuller instrument timbre (probably because of the better management of harmonics...). Even if there is not much music content below 35Hz, a full range system will reproduce better the 35-250Hz range, that's for sure!

3) Coming to our actual problem, KH's cannot go really down because of their technology. If a basshorn is to go down to 20Hz, well it has to be enormous! No way... On the other hand, proper subwoofer matching still seems problematic to me. So, what is left is the "cheating the physics" solution. Fortunately it costs almost nothing to try and is easily reversible!

Ah, you cant have everything in life, can you?