Gunna get this THEEAR???

[kramskoi]

drwho and many stated such that many cds do infact have alot of sub 32 hertz material.

A friend of mine who is a retired audio engineer would beg to differ .

the below spectral analysis from Enya would beg to differ also:

If you have a microphone and trueRTA, buy a copy of Pink Floyd's DSOTM, run the mic while you play "Speak to me" and i challenge your engineering friend to explain what's going on around 25 Hz.

[kramskoi]

The Ananda will definitely smoke, with the new LMS drivers, when they become available, but there is something much more potent under 20 Hz, if you have'nt heard, then check the websites below:

This is a THD profile at 12 Hz, note the output!

This would be 15 dB louder than what i get from my TC sounds 2x15", at the same THD level and frequency...the TRW will play all the way down to DC:

I would have to build 5 more duals to reach that level, for a total of 6 2x15" sealed subwoofers, and that's just for the 12 Hz output.

http://bassment.wordpress.com/

[Jay481985]

problem is not everyone has the room for infinite baffle

[kramskoi]

problem is not everyone has the room for infinite baffle

you're right Jay...and not everyone has over $12k to drop on one!...very impressive nonetheless...it's amazing that the guy calls a 2x18" Wilson XS plus two watchdogs "anemic"...wow!

[DrWho]

Kramskoi, do you own one of them "fan" subs? I would be curious to see some intermodulation distortion measurements. I am skeptical that it can do multiple frequencies at the same time with low distortion based on the premise of its function. Though if you're cranking out 120dB at that low of frequency I don't think distortion is much of a concern (since the fundamentals aren't even audible).

I think cost considerations come into play as well...for $12k I think you could achieve that output with an insane IB.

[kramskoi]

Kramskoi, do you own one of them "fan" subs? I would be curious to see some intermodulation distortion measurements. I am skeptical that it can do multiple frequencies at the same time with low distortion based on the premise of its function. Though if you're cranking out 120dB at that low of frequency I don't think distortion is much of a concern (since the fundamentals aren't even audible).

I think cost considerations come into play as well...for $12k I think you could achieve that output with an insane IB.

don't own one, of course, but you're right about infinte baffle, however, this guy mentioned that the 120 dB is conservative and that the fan held THD up to around 125 dB...even at 1Hz...going to take a lot of cones to do this cleanly, not to mention space...my sub rolls off at 6 dB octave and i get 105 dB at 12 Hz at 5% 3rd HD...to keep this level of THD and add 15 dB would cost me 5 more 2x15...7 more to get to 125 dB, that's 16 cones...and you still have the rolloff...considering it costs 1300.00 to build each enclosure, it comes out to "almost" the same...the kicker to this is the amount of wattage the fan uses...150 watts!

[TheEAR]

First

There are plenty of CD's with information well below 30Hz,a good few I have will make subs capable of a true 16Hz with little compression cry.

To say music contains little below 40hz is knowing a tiny portion of what is out there,like i've said,you can find recordings with sub 16Hz material! Pipe organs can reach for the abyss of human hearing,with ease.Some bass electronic tracks have subsonic bass(below 30Hz).

I saw the fan "subwoofer" it is grosly overpriced as it is made in minute quantities and they know they have a niche market.Where the buyer is ready to spend 12K or more on a subsonic device.

I have no doubt these dual TC Sounds beasts with the matching Crown amps will be the last subs even some of us bass maiacs will ever need(and this in larger rooms). Now TC Sounds is a company deserving some major respect,all performance and looks to match! These guys know sub bass and I am buying from them,be damn sure.The pair and the two amps.

Yes you can do better (IB sub)and habe a "sub" capable of infra subsonics down to where you can count the frequeny (10 Hz and below).But lets be reslistic a solid 16hz is damn good,considering the output these will be capable in a mid-sized room!

[kramskoi]

First

There are plenty of CD's with information well below 30Hz,a good few I have will make subs capable of a true 16Hz with little compression cry.

To say music contains little below 40hz is knowing a tiny portion of what is out there,like i've said,you can find recordings with sub 16Hz material! Pipe organs can reach for the abyss of human hearing,with ease.Some bass electronic tracks have subsonic bass(below 30Hz).

I saw the fan "subwoofer" it is grosly overpriced as it is made in minute quantities and they know they have a niche market.Where the buyer is ready to spend 12K or more on a subsonic device.

I have no doubt these dual TC Sounds beasts with the matching Crown amps will be the last subs even some of us bass maiacs will ever need(and this in larger rooms). Now TC Sounds is a company deserving some major respect,all performance and looks to match! These guys know sub bass and I am buying from them,be damn sure.The pair and the two amps.

Yes you can do better (IB sub)and habe a "sub" capable of infra subsonics down to where you can count the frequeny (10 Hz and below).But lets be reslistic a solid 16hz is damn good,considering the output these will be capable in a mid-sized room!

point taken...but most bassheads want it all...myself included[]...once you have enough headroom, like the TRW guy, the only improvement is extension. It's down there and does add to the experience.

[Jay481985]

First

There are plenty of CD's with information well below 30Hz,a good few I have will make subs capable of a true 16Hz with little compression cry.

To say music contains little below 40hz is knowing a tiny portion of what is out there,like i've said,you can find recordings with sub 16Hz material! Pipe organs can reach for the abyss of human hearing,with ease.Some bass electronic tracks have subsonic bass(below 30Hz).

I saw the fan "subwoofer" it is grosly overpriced as it is made in minute quantities and they know they have a niche market.Where the buyer is ready to spend 12K or more on a subsonic device.

I have no doubt these dual TC Sounds beasts with the matching Crown amps will be the last subs even some of us bass maiacs will ever need(and this in larger rooms). Now TC Sounds is a company deserving some major respect It Always had respect from all the companies buying drivers from them and rebadging them thier own! ,all performance and looks to match! These guys know sub bass and I am buying from them,be damn sure.The pair and the two amps.

Yes you can do better (IB sub)and habe a "sub" capable of infra subsonics down to where you can count the frequeny (10 Hz and below).But lets be reslistic a solid 16hz is damn good,considering the output these will be capable in a mid-sized room!

[Jay481985]

problem is not everyone has the room for infinite baffle

you're right Jay...and not everyone has over $12k to drop on one!...very impressive nonetheless...it's amazing that the guy calls a 2x18" Wilson XS plus two watchdogs "anemic"...wow!

aurasound 18 inch woofers can be brough on madisound for 1000 a piece. Looking at the time they were good subs but now it seems rather anemic...... Also Wilson dropped the XS as it was to big and such.

[CAS]

DrWho and kramskoi already said it. For $15k you could equal those results with standard equipment or a nice IB. All 3 would probably take up similar real estate.

But after a time you really are just adding to the ego (which I don't have a problem with). Some others would spend $20k+ on just making their HT room look like the Starship Enterprise.

To each his own.

But partially back to the original topic, I'm still curious how the differences would sound between the Klipsch option I mentioned and the Ananda. Both equal in price ($4k). I know tuning would be a factor, but I'm also curious what the output comparison would look like.

[Raider]

drwho and many stated such that many cds do infact have alot of sub 32 hertz material.

A friend of mine who is a retired audio engineer would beg to differ .

Perhaps the key word is retired, vs. DrWho who is in and around the rapidly changing current technology.

In all likelihood, your engineer friend who is retired spent the majority of his career engineering for a vinyl medium, and for his experience this was probably true.

When I was in college in the early-mid seventies I had an internship and had the opportunity to have access to many of the studios in the Nashville area.

One evening we went by the company that cut the wax masters used to make the dies that records were pressed with. I was really into all things audio at the time, and spent alot of time comparing equipment with frequency response and distortion specs. So imagine my surprise when I looked above the machine that actually cut the master and saw that an equalizer was being used on the input signal which sharply rolled off the response below 40-50 hz and above 13-15k.

I asked the engineer about this and he seemed a little amused, but went on to explain that the low end was rolled off because if you didn't it limited the amount of material you could squeeze on each side. The capability to cut lower was there, but a value decision was generally made, unless specifically requested by his client to do otherwise, to sacrifice low end response for more program content. The lower the bass, the wider the needle path had to be to reproduce it since it was an analog signal. So music content with 20 hz response would cut playing time on that side by about 50% vs. content with only 40 hz response, for example( the void between grooves remained about the same).

He also noted that very few audio systems used were capable of solid response in the lowest octave so there were few people out of the total audience that would be able to appreciate the effort. Further, there were few instruments capable of producing a signal that low at the time. (This was about when Emerson, Lake, and Palmer achieved notoriety by releasing the album with "Lucky Man" which reportedly ended with a synthesized 20 hz signal, something pretty rare at the time. This cut was commonly used by HiFi shops to demonstrate their leading edge equipment.)

He went on to tell me that he rolled off the high end because his clients generally felt that response above that point added more noise than content, and that there was less hiss when configured this way. This approach is also helped minimize the tape hiss which could never be completely eliminated from the master tape.

I believe this company did a majority of the mastering for all the major labels in Nashville, and they cut wax masters for many albums for those labels besides projects originating in Nashville. On occasion, they would produce wax masters with wider bandwidth if the client requested it. But most albums were not.

Now the digital medium, that's a whole 'nother animal.

[kramskoi]

DrWho and kramskoi already said it. For $15k you could equal those results with standard equipment or a nice IB. All 3 would probably take up similar real estate.

But after a time you really are just adding to the ego (which I don't have a problem with). Some others would spend $20k+ on just making their HT room look like the Starship Enterprise.

To each his own.

But partially back to the original topic, I'm still curious how the differences would sound between the Klipsch option I mentioned and the Ananda. Both equal in price ($4k). I know tuning would be a factor, but I'm also curious what the output comparison would look like.

*edited for CAS

i don't know what your Klipsch option is, but the ultra2 sub pair with 1000 watts probably won't be a match...100 mm peak to peak on the two 15" radiators and 4" peak to peak on the driver (38mm linear)...these drivers have high electrical damping and extremely low Le, coupled with the Linear coil and massive amounts of copper (71 lb. driver), this "may", i'm not saying it is, but it may be best 15" driver on the planet, bar none. They'll command some serious juice but they should impress. An 18" pair should even more potent.

*Now maybe one would compare to the ultra2 system...went back and found your idea earlier in the thread...that would be an interesting comparison...i like the Klipsch pair in that case*

[TheEAR]

Looking at the specs,a single unit(TC Sounds ANADA)should outperform dual Klipsch THX subs with little problems.Dual stacked/side b side should rival any extravagant and costly box(non IB) desin on the market.

Now we need testing,and A/B comparos against the twin Klipsch THX/SVS dual TV12 Ultra/Velo DD18/Paradigm Servo Signature.

I am interested to see the SPL,linearity and above all COMPRESSION and THD relative to output.Nice to know a sub can best 120dB at 20Hz,now knowing it will do this with minimal compression and low THD is the icing on the cake.And lets see how linear they are across their operating freq. range and how linear they remain once they start to be pushed to thier limits(mechanical and/or thermal).

These are the most serious atempts so far,nobody else offer a sub with a driver so capable(at any price)!

[sunburnwilly]

I have an idea .

My sub has an eq graph that I can display on my TV .

When I get home from work tonight I'll check it out for myself .

Ok so this is a random shot taken during the Speak With Me track from my MFSL Dark Side Of The Moon CD .

[sunburnwilly]

Another

[sunburnwilly]

And just for kicks . Here is Cowboys From Hell by Patera . From the best of Pantera CD .

[sunburnwilly]

Another

[TheEAR]

sunburnwilly,

I see the good ole Velo is doing the job down deep. []

[sunburnwilly]

Well

I don't know how accurate the EQ is . It is simply a set-up tool for the sub . Measurements were taken at my listening position about 11' away from the TV .

Now I'm no engineer , but it appears to me that there is definitely something going on down there .

I'll send my buddy an email with the pics and see what he has to say .

He may be retired form his day job at Microsoft but he is still an active consultant for them . "He is only 42" . For the most part he designs software and fixes problems . he was the Microsoft liason that worked with Klipsch in Hope back in '99 .

My appologies for opening my mouth about something that I did not try firsthand .