Most Articulate and Accurate Sub?

[Raider]

I am close to purchasing a Klipsch system for HT and serious listening as well, because a dealer here has offered some pretty incredible values to me. I am of the philosophy that any speaker should reproduce the signal exactly as it is received with no coloration, neither adding nor subtracting anything from the signal. Ideally I think that it shouldn't matter whether the sub is used for music or HT if it accurately represents the signal input to it. Generally though, most subs trade off musical fidelity for visceral impact or vice versa. While it would be great to find a sub that was equally adept at both, this seems to be elusive.

Its great to consider subs that are at the leading edge of the envelope for performance and output at the lowest, even subsonic frequencies. But after I have carefully evaluated how I will actually use the sub, I conclude that the majority of my listening time for either HT of music is at moderate or average sound pressure levels. Also, I sometimes watch TV late at night after the family is asleep. I am very protective of my hearing, and always have been after a good friend in college educated me on the relationship between SPL and hearing loss-especially as a function of time. So while its great to push the envelope and enjoy the visceral pleasure of loud music or a good action/adventure movie, this is only a relatively small part (10%) of my overall listening.

Given my actual listening priorities, absolute accuracy and articulation is primarily important. I find that I never tire of these attributes at any listening level. On the other hand I quickly tire of muddy or boomy bass response, no matter how loud it might be. The same definition, delineation and precision that are often appreciated in the midrange is the goal that I have for bass reproduction. I do like to listen loud at times, but I find that opportunity to do so is not nearly as often as for moderate-to-loud levels.

So my search is for the most articulate sub I can find. I will be using towers for my mains and surrounds (likely RF82's all around with RC62 center) so their solid bass response will only need to be supplemented in the lowest octave.

There are three subs that I have heard that I have been particularly impressed with: the RT12d, and Martin Logan Dynamo (10") and Abyss (12"). I find the Dynamo to be incredibly good for a ten, and it would be outstanding in a small space or apartment. But I wonder if it will have adequate output for the occasional high-output use. The Abyss has essentially the same sonic signature as the Dynamo, but with substantially more output. However, the price of this unit approaches what I can buy the RT10d for, and lacks the ARC. I have not had opportunity at any local dealer to hear the RT10d however to know how it compares to the ML alternatives, which have very, very good articulation. I have heard the RT12d, and there was basically nothing that I look for in a sub that this unit lacked. However, the price of admission is a stretch for sure, and I am not sure if I need the additional output, given my actual listening preferences.

So if anyone has experience with these units, or knows or any other subs that I should consider, I would appreciate hearing your input.

Especially helpful would be anyone who could compare the ML offerings to the Klipsch alternatives.

Or anyone who could compare the RT10d which I haven't heard (and might have to buy without hearing) to the RT12d.

Thanks for any feedback or opinions.

[TheEAR]

Good you are looking for what I consider basic sub qualities,articulation,clean output and capable of a good output all while maintaining linearity across its operating freq. range.

there are a few subs that do not cost an arm and a leg that can fill the bill.

As you have notived Martin Logan is one of these companies,all thier current subs share the same traits.Articulation(bass definition)above mindless extreme output (often unusable).

Carver made a sub called the Knight Shadow(funny name for a sub),that like the Dynamo,sealed can produce quite deep(25Hz)solid output and is all about what some call pitch defined.I have one with Totem's TABU speakers,very musical,never invading or irritating.

Sunfire has the sealed Solitaire and D12 units,the D series suffers from a noisy amp that prevents this inexpensive sub to become a great sub.Tight,integrates like a charm,no boom,jyst clean bass lines and layers when present.

Velodyne's SPL1200,quite punchy with solid extension in the 25hz range.Think of it as a higher quality Sunfire D12.The amp is quiet,when no signal is present.

REL,again the sealed Q series are compact and very clean,follow the rythm and will be out of the way of music.Only adding when needed,disapearing act by excellence,easy to mate with any speakers.

Klipsch RT10 and 12d,both are very close in extension and the 12d has bit more max output.A non issue really.Good definition,not to the level of the sealed subs but very good none the less.More placement sensitive,the auto EQ will take care of this however.

HSU VTF3 ,best vented sub made under $1000.While the competing SVS will have more abyss grun this one easts them in all around integration,bass drive,definition.A jack of all trades.Nothing impressive on paper but watch out it performs way above its price range.I am getting two HO(with the TC ports when they hit the HSU store).

And my soon to be champ...forget it.The JL Audio []

At under $2000 its all about careful design choices,and the above are all about definition above max output .While providing enough SPL to satisfy all but the deaf to be generation listening to garbage music.

I listen mostly at low to mid volume(on the lower side),the detail goes away at high volumes,you hear less detail and cannot enjoy the detail in finer music.So Output above 105dB is great to have but a tradeoff for the quality.O better have a Carver KS than a SVS PC sub for most music.As i will never trade Dynaudio's Contour 1.1's for a Klipsch RB(any model).Its resolution and finesse over OUTPUT here.

I think ...you need to listen more to the subs I pointed and you will find your sub.Forget the Carver,it was discontinued some time ago.And I feel you would need two to satisfy.

[darkside]

to satisfy all but the deaf to be generation listening to garbage music.

Who you talkin' 'bout???

Anyways, I personally would recommend an Earthquake Supernova of any

type. I've read some mediocre reviews of them (Specifically the MK-IV

10, which is what I've got), but only your ears can tell you what is

best (no pun intended). I only use it for music w/ some RFs in a 2

channel setup and its great. The bass that it produces is cleaner (not

louder, though its that too) than that of my RFs. It also has a very

dark, warm sound if you know what I'm talking about...Very good,

although you may want to look at a larger model for better

extension.... My two cents

[Chris Robinson]

I think it would be good for rmlowz to chime in here since he's been around the block like Ear has ... He also has a Danley in his mix right now and should have a few more hours of listening time as well.

For articulation, you need nimbleness and speed. For me, this translates into horns. That is why I'm trying the Danley DTS-20. Unbelievably, I still haven't heard it even though it's resting in its cabinet today. However, it has very low group delay (read the thread on THAT subject) so I'm assuming it is fast and light on its feet.

One of these days I'll get this system up and running and then I'll be able to comment on Danley subs (horn) and Klipschorns (horns).

[TheEAR]

Earthquake subs are not slow as it is.They simply fall off and cannot reproduce much above 60Hz well. WIth larger mains this is a non issue,you cross your mains around 50hz and voila.The woofer used can reproduve over 500Hz with ease,the design choices of the Supernova subs were max output in the all important 25-60Hz.They made tradeoffs that is all.

A fast 40Hz does not exist,I never heard a fast 40Hz...even from my squeaky clean Velo HGS or "fast" Klipsch RSw's. []

My JLAudio will have to wait,will pick it up next week.So busy I am stil at work,many things to finish. [:$][|-)]

[darkside]

Agreed with the Earthquakes. They do tend fall off, rather than roll,

at the top and bottom ends of their frequency range, but are clean and

powerful enough for me. Besides, if the mains can pick up where the

Supernova leaves off (which even my RF-15s do fine) then you're good to

go.

[sunburnwilly]

I like mine !

[colterphoto1]

Klipsch THX, you'll never want another sub.