Klipsch RT-12d vs. JL Audio Fathom f113 Subwoofer

[Johnny Canuck]

Hi, I was just wondering if anybody here managed to hear both the Klipsch RT-12d vs. JL Audio Fathom f113 Subwoofer and what their thoughts and both models were?

I am buying some Klipsch Reference line speakers (RC64, RF83/63 and RS62's) and am looking for a subwoofer for my setup.

My budget for the subwoofer is up to $3000 US so I could just afford the JL Audio Fathom 13" subwoofer but am trying to decide between that, the Klipsch RT-12D (Which I can get for a smoking price) and some other brand like Velodyne, etc.

For the subwoofer, I know subwoofers dont need to be matched (e.g. the same brand) to the other 5 speakers, so I dont mind which brand I buy and any sub 18 inches (woofer diameter) or less I have room for, the only thing I want the sub to include would be:

-a Digital user-interface (for adjusting equalizer modes and listening preferences)

-calibration microphone (for optimizing placement of sub and equalizer levels)

I can get a really good price on the RT-12D but a lot of people are talking about the $3200 US JL Audio Fathom f113 being the best woofer out there (for about $800 more than the Klipsch model) so that is why I am curious about comparisons...

--------------------------------------------------

*****My subwoofer needs:

I RARELY listen to music on CDs. I occasionally listen to music on satellite/digital cable but the primary use of my system will be for High definition movies , Xbox 360 or Playstation 3 gaming and some high definition television programs so the vast majority of my sources will NOT be 2 channel stereo sources but rather 5.1 sources.

My sound preferences seem to be geared towards warmer more natural sounding speakers. I dont care for loud-thumping unnatural (and muddied) base, I prefer clear base and warm (not bright) sound.

My living room size is 2933 cubic feet (ceiling is 8 feet high).

[Lastly, there are 2 doorways (With sliding doors) leading into the room that I can't control so while the room volume is just under 3000 cubic feet I know that the bass situation isn't ideal since the room isn't sealed...]

Thanks

[link]

I own the RT 12D and like it a lot. I did not listen to any others so I'm not much help. I will say the Klipsch model is terrific and well built. The digital display is very useful and adds a bit of class. You won't go wrong with the RT 12D.

[Raider]

I recently compared the JL Audio F113 and the RT12d at my local dealer on RF83's. Both had utilized their on-board DSP's to optimize to the room. You can't make a bad choice here. The differences in the two are expressed in terms of sonic signature and output. Both represent an excellent solution for deep, extended, musical bass with a minimal space intrusion in terms of footprint. Both are a tribute to the engineering expertise of their respective designers in balancing priorities.

We listened to the subs alone, and then with the RF83's on a variety of music. When played alone the difference in sonic signature is subtle, but evident. The RT12d is musical and phat with deep response, but you can hear a subtle difference in the attack/delay times of this sub on some material. I think this is somewhat characteristic of subs with passive radiators, and the RT12d was very slightly less well-defined compared to the F113. On the other hand the F113 had a clarity that is more typical of sealed subs, even at the very lowest frequencies. Though both integrated with then RF83's very well, I was able to localize the RT12d to some degree dependent on the musical content; the F113 didn't draw any attention from the mains. The F113 had an audibly more solid response at the very lowest frequencies, and was even more visceral at all frequencies. The JL added what I can best describe as an ethereal nature to the music, because its clarity and integration of the lowest bass frequencies is something you seldom hear except with really good headphones.

I came away thinking that the RT12d is 95% as good as the JL, and for what it is designed for, which is to provide lowest octave reinforcement for the Klipsch line with an emphasis on music, it is a choice that most listeners will be thrilled with.

It should be noted that at street prices with typical discounts, the JL approaches nearly twice the cost of the RT12d. Actually the F112, at a more similar price point, is more comparable to the RT12d. I also heard the F112, and found that the differences between it and the RT12d were essentially the same, but much less pronounced.

For the most discerning listener who has to have the very best articulation even at the lowest frequencies, and/or who has a very large space the F113 would be a better choice, assuming there is no budget constraint. It is the best sub I have ever heard. But at a cost. The cost is nearly double to attain that last 5% differentiation from the RT12d in performance. This also underscores the solid value that the RT12d represents.

Nothing demonstrates the law of diminishing returns better than audio.

But you should decide what sounds good to you. That's all that really matters anyway after the dust and the opinions settle.

[TheEAR]

RT-12d better value for the money,f113 better all around sub.

I would take one f113 over two RT-12d subs.Why? Simply because the output of one f113 is sufficient for even demanding listeners with large rooms and it can disapear like no other sub I ever had(and I had and still have a damn lot,probably more subs than anyone on any forum anywhere!).

The quality of the f113 in a well set up high end audio system is priceless.Those who think it is a 5% gain,way way off line. The output may be close that is all.

The sub bass quality(control,slam and lack of any audible coloration)and component/built quality makes the Rt-12d,Velodyne HGS18,SVS Ultra...pit them all...even Aerial SW12...SECOND RATE.

Lets stop turning around the pot here.If you have a high end system and have invested at least 15-20K in your sound system,then YES the f113 is a clear choice.If not you are better off with a RT-12d and it is a very capable and well built sub...also designed by Deon B if I am not mistaken,a true expert when it comes to subwoofers.

I have invested more money in my system than people invest in their housing,so for me the f113 is a bargain,and I will get another f113,a f112 and the GOTHAM when it comes out.I am sold.

In one product outing JL has won me over,and that is the first time I am so impressed with any product!

You choice

[Jay481985]

funny, a friend of mine in the world of subs has said that pr sound the best in blind tests done with the identical subwoofers between sealed, ported, and pr. Group delay as he claims does little in the sub range. Also pr have one of the higher efficencies so just like how the horn on the klipsch makes the compression driver more efficent, so does a pr to keep it low in excursions hence cleaner and lower distortion.

[TheEAR]

On paper the RT-12d looks great,in reality the f113 is a better sub. Distortion down very deep and at high SPL tells very little with subs.Almost nothing

Your ears will enter protection mode and the measured lower distortion will be on no use.

AT normal and above normal listening levels even in large rooms the f113 sails thru any material thrown at it.And when it sails its distortion is too low to even post about it.

[Raider]

While each design type has inherent advantages, and disadvantages, it is often the quality in execution of the design that makes more difference.

[Johnny Canuck]

I recently compared the JL Audio F113 and the RT12d at my local dealer on RF83's. Both had utilized their on-board DSP's to optimize to the room. You can't make a bad choice here. The differences in the two are expressed in terms of sonic signature and output. Both represent an excellent solution for deep, extended, musical bass with a minimal space intrusion in terms of footprint. Both are a tribute to the engineering expertise of their respective designers in balancing priorities.

We listened to the subs alone, and then with the RF83's on a variety of music. When played alone the difference in sonic signature is subtle, but evident. The RT12d is musical and phat with deep response, but you can hear a subtle difference in the attack/delay times of this sub on some material. I think this is somewhat characteristic of subs with passive radiators, and the RT12d was very slightly less well-defined compared to the F113. On the other hand the F113 had a clarity that is more typical of sealed subs, even at the very lowest frequencies. Though both integrated with then RF83's very well, I was able to localize the RT12d to some degree dependent on the musical content; the F113 didn't draw any attention from the mains. The F113 had an audibly more solid response at the very lowest frequencies, and was even more visceral at all frequencies. The JL added what I can best describe as an ethereal nature to the music, because its clarity and integration of the lowest bass frequencies is something you seldom hear except with really good headphones.

I came away thinking that the RT12d is 95% as good as the JL, and for what it is designed for, which is to provide lowest octave reinforcement for the Klipsch line with an emphasis on music, it is a choice that most listeners will be thrilled with.

It should be noted that at street prices with typical discounts, the JL approaches nearly twice the cost of the RT12d. Actually the F112, at a more similar price point, is more comparable to the RT12d. I also heard the F112, and found that the differences between it and the RT12d were essentially the same, but much less pronounced.

For the most discerning listener who has to have the very best articulation even at the lowest frequencies, and/or who has a very large space the F113 would be a better choice, assuming there is no budget constraint. It is the best sub I have ever heard. But at a cost. The cost is nearly double to attain that last 5% differentiation from the RT12d in performance. This also underscores the solid value that the RT12d represents.

Nothing demonstrates the law of diminishing returns better than audio.

But you should decide what sounds good to you. That's all that really matters anyway after the dust and the opinions settle.

Raider THANK YOU for your informative reply. I can't find a JL Audio F113 around my place, let alone have it and the RT-12D side-by-side for comparison so I have to rely on people like you for information.

It seems that the consensus opinion is that the F113 is the best sub for $3000 and under, but that doesn't neccessarily mean it is the sub everyone needs.

Raider, your info made it clear that while the RT-12D is a better "bang for the buck" I think in my case, because I am putting in around $15,000 worth of speakers and amps into this setup that the extra $1000 or so on the F113 is worth in order to get that extra little bit out of my system in the low end (where I would prefer to have a little better clarity/articulation)

Hopefully other prospective RT-12D and JL Audio F113 will find this thread useful...

Thanks to everyone for sharing your advice and thoughts.