Advice please: buying my 1st HT system, 5.1, klipsch ref series, receiver?

[robbyrob]

Hi, so I've finally decided to setup a 5.1 HT system and say goodbye to the 2.0 built-in TV speakers. I bought the Promedia 2.1 computer speakers a few years ago and they've been excellent so I've pretty much decided to go with Klipsch for my HT setup. I've been doing a lot of research and reading many of the posts in these forums which have been very helpful so far. I still have a few questions so I thought I'd write this.

1. A few of my friends have had the Yamaha HTR5860 for about a year now and they're very happy with it so I was thinking of getting that as well (this year's version 5960 ($500 CAD)). I've read though that Yamaha makes bright receivers and when paired with bright Klipsch speakers, the sound may be too bright. I live in Canada and there aren't many retail stores around that sell Klipsch. The one I went to http://www.audiotronic.ca had them connected to a Denon receiver so I couldn't have a listen with the Yamaha. I've read that one solution to solving the brightness problem is to simply lower the treble. Is this true? I'm also considering the HTRN5060 ($500 CAD) which I think is Canada's version of the RXN600. I only intend to use 5.1 so I don't need the 7.1 of the 5960. However, the reviews I've seen haven't been great. What do you think?

2. Originally, I was going to go with the Synergy series because BestBuy carries that line in Canada. However, the problem is that they only carry the lowest end for some of the speakers, specifically the center channels and surrounds. So, I'd be stuck with F3 C1 F3 S1 S1 SUB10. I'd have to get the C3 and S3 from the U.S. somehow. Maybe it's a good thing though because as a result I ended up doing more research and it looks like I'd be better off going with the Reference series. I noticed on the Klipsch site that they show recommended packages: http://www.klipsch.com/products/lists/floorstanding-systems.aspx and they seem to be ordered in such a way that would put the F3 package ahead of the RF-52 pkg. Is the RF-52 package better than the F3 pkg?

3. The room that this will be in is about 17 feet by 8 feet. Do you think the RF-52 pkg would be good enough or would I be better off going with a variation consisting of: RF62 RC62 RF62 RS42 RS42 RW10d ? I've heard that spending more the the centre channel is good because that's where most of the sound will be coming from.

4. Receiver with HDMI or not? My current TV's best video input is S-Video ... don't worry, I plan to upgrade to an LCD 42" or 46" tv within the next year and so the receiver that I buy now will need to work with it. The Yamahas I mentioned don't have HDMI so I'd use component which seems to be good too. Also, there are versions 1.2, 1.3, etc of HDMI so I wonder if today's receivers implementations will be obsolete anyway? I read a posting about a Pioneer receiver where only the HDMI video works so the HDMI cable only replaced the component cable. So, I wonder if it's worth it.

5. Use receiver for video switching or not? I also read somewhere that the receiver should have 100MHz bandwidth in order to support 1080i and higher video switching. ie. DVD player connected to TV via receiver instead of DVD player connected directly to TV. What is your opinion on routing video outputs through the receiver as opposed to connecting directly to the TV? I guess you have no choice if you run out of inputs on either one but I just need to know if the bandwidth rating is something I should be looking for in a receiver. I believe the 5960 has 60MHz and the new 6090 has 100MHz.

6. Reference series made in China? That's what it said on the back when I checked in the store. It's too bad because I'd have to pay duty if shipped from the U.S.

7. Price? It looks like 85% of MSRP or better is what I should be aiming for.

8. Speaker wire? I still have about 36 feet of leftover rockford fosgate 16 gauge wire but I will need more. As long as I go with the proper gauge for distance http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm, I should be okay right? I bought a 6 foot digital optical cable on boxing day but I still need to find a good price on subwoofer cables. The store I was at only had Monster ones for like $150 CAD which is a lot more than I want to spend on a sub cable. Are there features in a sub cable that I need to look for instead of merely going by brand name?

Anyways, sorry about the very long posting and thank you for taking the time to read it. Please share your opinions and advice on any of the above.

Thanks in advance, Rob.

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Sony CRT 32" tv, Panasonic DVD player, [?receiver?], [?speakers?]

[chitown2477]

Here are my thoughts<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

1. I have had two Yamaha's and think they are great; I just bought the RX-V1600 to replace my HTR-5740. I demo'ed a similar Denon and simply liked the functionality of the Yamaha. Even though you only want 5.1 now, I suggest you get a 6.1 or even 7.1 receiver. My position is leave room for expansion if you want more speakers later. I also think you should get the best receiver you can afford and you can get a lot in $500-800 range. Don't forget about having enough inputs for the future, e.g. optical, component, and even HDMI. All attainable for about $800.00

2. I have RF-52's for fronts, RC-62 for center and RS-42's for rear with a DefTech sub. They sound great and I HIGHLY advise the reference line over synergy. And the F3 package does not include a sub.

3. If you get the RF-52 package with a solid middle-level receiver, you will be very happy for your room size. You are right that the center channel is important but dont get something that is to big in relation to your other speakers.

4. I advise getting a receiver with HDMI just because it gives you options for the future. Mostly likely you will need HDMI to pass 1080p through your receiver if you go that route. Also, if you ever has to components with HDMI you will need a splitter unless your TV has two HDMI inputs. So, buying a receiver with HDMI can save cost and make connections more efficient. The biggest thing about HMDI 1.3 is the ability to pass true HD sound through but that wont happen for several months and will be on higher priced receivers anyway. HDMI 1.1 and 1.2 are fairly common now. The biggest compatibility issue with 1.1 and 1.2 are components that are not truly HDMI certified to protect copyrights. I am not an expert but have done a lot of research on the topic.

5. I will use my current receiver for video switching because it will allow me to reduce some of my remotes. Some have said to all ways go directly to the source for video with no switching. Others from the forum may help you more on this item.

6. About the only not made in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />China is the sandwich I ate for lunch today. I am in the US, but why would you have to worry about it if you purchase in Canada? I am sure any trade cost are included in the price.

7. Shop for the best price, especially customer loyalty discounts.

8. I think you will be fine with speaker wire as long as the shielding and gauge is fine. Ditto for the subwoofer cable.

Hope this helps.

[robbyrob]

Thanks for your advice and comments! Much appreciated.

So, I will consider spending a little bit more on the receiver and take a closer look at the 5990 and 6090. Also, it looks like the klipsch reference line it will be.

Regarding "made in China", it would be better for me if they were made in the U.S. or Mexico because I would not have to pay duty if I bought them in the U.S. and had them shipped to me or drove down and picked them up.

Just today I found some 6 foot HDMI cables for sale at $10 each so I bought three. This should force me to go with HDMI and an HDMI capable TV sooner.

[DrWho]

1) What kind of acoustics do you have in the room that these
speakers will be going in. I really don't think you're going to notice
too many brightness issues with the Yamaha. Though I might recommend
going up a little bit higher in the line up to make sure you avoid it
altogether. I'm personally a Denon fan myself.

2) I believe the reason the RF-52 system is "behind" the F-3
system is because it is significantly less expensive. The RF-62
system would be more on par (in price). Based on specs, I would go with
the F-3 over the RF-52, but would probably go with the RF-62 over the
F-3 (but that's more an aesthetics decision). The
Synergy Sub-12 however is without a doubt better than the RW-10d - and
arguably at least on par with the RW-12d. Just a little something you
might want to factor into the equation.

3) The RF-52 package
would fill the room, but you should get much better performance with
the RF-62 lineup. In both cases I would suggest upgrading significantly
from the RW-10d.

4) Definitely go with HDMI, but do your homework.
The new format hasn't quite settled down yet and it would be tragic for
you to end up investing in the technology and then having it move in a
different direction (essentially yielding your investment worthless).
Being an early adopter is a risky thing, but I'm pretty sure HDMI is
here to stay.

5) The advantage to using the receiver as a video
switcher is that it allows you to switch sources with the click of one
button instead of two. This can be an important factor especially when
there are others who will be operating the equipment who aren't tech
savvy. I find that it quickly becomes annoying when you have to select
the audio and video independently from each other. If you end up using
your receiver for video switching, then make sure you get a receiver
that upsamples the picture. If you don't, then you'll be left to choose
the video input on the TV again - and will be required to run multiple
video cables to the TV. In other words, you want a receiver with an
HDMI output connected to your TV. With upsampling, the video output
from your DVD player or cable box will get converted into the HDMI
format so that it can go down the cable (it doesn't improve the signal,
but it doesn't degrade it either).

6) All but the top of the line
Reference (the RF-83 package) aren't made in America. I doubt the duty
difference would be significant enough to fund the better package []

7) 85% MSRP seems pretty standard. Since it's towards the end of the year, you might be able to push for a slightly better deal.

8)
Buying proper gauge is definitely the way to go [Y] As far as
"subwoofer" cable - it's really no different than any normal RCA cable.
If anything, a subwoofer cable would be marketing better shielding,
which in theory reduces the magnitude of EMI. However, the shielding is
only an issue if you have a noise issue. You can do significantly
better than $150 for an RCA cable. You might even try a cheap old
normal RCA and if it works, then you've got nothing to worry about. If
you've got noise, then you're only out $10.

And just a few random comments that came to mind...

Is
there any reason in particular that you're purchasing the entire system
at once? I'm not sure what your long term goals are, but you might
consider building in pieces that way each piece of the puzzle can be
that much better in quality. The purchase of a speaker is something
that can last a good 50 years, whereas the electronics and source
material is something that seems to change every other year. Perhaps
divert the speaker budget into a really nice pair of mains and matching
center channel, then use a pair of old speakers for the surrounds
temporarily. When funds replenish you can choose to pursue a subwoofer
or surrounds and then eventually expanding out into a 7.1 system.
That's not to say that your current proposal is falling short by any
means, but it's important to keep the future in mind.

If you plan on keeping up with the ever changing electronic
world, then I might suggest going the route of seperates. Find yourself
a quality multichannel amp that complements your speakers and you
should never need to change it as long as you keep the speakers. And
then you just use a pre/pro to handle all of the processing (which can
change as formats change). It might be stretching your budget, but you
seemed a bit flexibile too. You could do it for about $1300 from Outlaw
Audio with their 970/7075 combo:

https://www.outlawaudio.com/

I've no affiliation or personal experience, but there are many Klipsch
users that have been more than satisfied - and you can't deny the huge
bang for the buck. One downside is the lack of HDMI, but DVI is really
the same thing - the difference being that HDMI has an audio feed on
the same cable. You would probably want to use a seperate digital audio
connection anyway...

[JetJockey]

Dr.Who, Hello and Happy New year!

Another very well written and very informative article from you. We should all consider ourselves lucky indeed to have your knowledge and expertise available to us just because your love of our passion.

I for one look forward to many more of your posts, Kind regards,

Chris

[robbyrob]

I totally agree with Chris (JetJockey), thank you!

1. Sorry, I'm still new to all of this so I don't really know what acoustics means but I'll guess and say:

standard drywall walls & ceilings; stipple (little dots of dry paint) on 8 foot ceilings

laminate flooring on concrete (basement)

two hollow wood doors in the room and a staircase going upstairs

L-shaped room

I will have to take another look at the Denons... I did like how the volume knob made a little click as turned it as opposed to the Yamaha one which felt cheaper. I guess one thing that makes me focus on the Yamahas is their auto-setup feature. I've heard that it works something like connecting a mic to the receiver and then it walks you through some steps using the little screen and calibrates by telling you where to place the speakers. I bet though that if I continue to learn more in these forums then I'll be able to place the speakers in the proper spots manually. Only time will tell.

2, 3. Wow, I'm surprised to hear that! Up here in Canada the Synergy series is much cheaper than the Reference. For example, on boxing day http://www.bestbuy.ca had an F3 speaker for $200 CAD whereas the lowest price I've seen the RF52 speaker for is $414. I'm sure that this is due to the lack of retail competition here for the Reference series since only one place sells them. Thanks for the SUB-12 tip since I had no idea that it was as good as the RWs. Its styling shouldn't clash with the RF speakers either which is nice too.

4, 5. Good points! After reading them I went digging and found the following diagram at http://www.yamaha.ca showing how the 5990 and 6090 upsample / downsample. The 5960 also does but just not HDMI:

6, 7. Very true, and the highest Klipsch line that my local retailer carries is the RF-82 so I couldn't even try listening to those if I wanted to. I might get to go to San Francisco for a few days in the new year though so hopefully I'll find a store where I can experience the high-end Reference and maybe even the Heritage.

8. Thanks for letting me know! I had no idea that it was just an RCA cable. Does it matter if I string a few together if I need a longer length? Also, is the gauge important?

I'd like to buy the whole 5.1 system together mostly for aesthetic reasons... ie. the speakers will all have the same styling and colour. Also, I've never had a 5.1 system so it would be nice to experience surround sound. Then again, maybe I can start smaller and go 3.1 (left centre right sub) at first. Would a receiver allow that configuration? I hear what you're saying though and I totally agree since I tend to do a lot of research and try to buy quality stuff with the future in mind. If I didn't get a sub then would the fronts output the lows? Also, are surround speakers special or can any speakers be surrounds? The reason I ask is because I wonder if it would be better to use RF52s instead of RSes for surrounds.

I checked out the Outlaw Audio site and it looks to be quality stuff at fair prices. If I understand it correctly, it's a separate amp box and sound processor box whereas a typical receiver such as the Yamaha 5960 is an amp and a sound processor in one box? So, every few years I could simply replace the sound processor with the latest and greatest one? This sounds like the ideal setup and I will definitely look into it more. For the initial purchase I guess we'd want the 970 sound processor to have as many features as a 970/7075 priced ($1300 USD) receiver to make it a good buy right away. Then, in a few years, we'd only need to buy a newer version of the 970 which is only $700 instead of spending $1300 again. In your opinion and if you happen to know, what receivers does the 970 compete with or is in the same class as? ie. Yamaha RXV1700?

Thanks again, Rob.

[DrWho]

1) I assume you already have the room the speakers will be going in. When listening to music in the room, does the room seem bright? or is it dark? In a more elaborate setup I would encourage one to address the acoustics in the room, but that's often not very practical (aesthetics and cost). The alternative is to try to avoid exciting poor attributes of the room. In other words, bright speakers with a bright amplifier in a bright room probably isn't the route to go. One of the nice things about horns though is that they project the sound forward - minimizing the influence of the room. So though "bright" horn speakers in a bright room might be ok, you'll probably want to favor a warming sounding amplifier (perhaps something like Harman Kardon). However, if your room is a bit darker, then slightly brighter electronics might be a good thing. Really, when you're talking receivers - they all sound about 90% the same. I always recommend purchasing on features. As far as the YPAO - some people swear by it. I'm personally not a huge fan.

8) Linking cables together is fine, but I would try not to do it more than once. Connections are the areas where sound degredation, if any, is going to occur. Radio Shack sells some "Gold Series" cables in their store. I believe they sell a 16 foot RCA for around $15. It should be more than adequate. I believe blue jeans cable is another popular online place to purchase cables.

A receiver would allow a 3.1 configuration. You just tell it what speakers you have and their size and it takes care of the rest. The lack of a subwoofer is going to make the biggest difference with movies, where 20Hz extension is required. And then depending on the music you listen to will determine wether or not ~40Hz from the mains is going to be enough. As far as the surrounds - you will find many varied opinions on comparisons between the RB, RS, and even RF for the application. I believe the ideal world scenario 5.1 system has 5 identical speakers all around. Those who listen to a lot of music in surround sound tend to prefer the RF over the RB over the RS. However, you will probably find a lot of people that prefer the RS over the RB for movies. Ultimately it's going to depend on your listening tastes, but that's kinda hard to judge if you've never experienced surround sound before []

If I understand it correctly, it's a separate amp box and sound
processor box whereas a typical receiver such as the Yamaha 5960 is an
amp and a sound processor in one box? So, every few years I could
simply replace the sound processor with the latest and greatest one?

Yes and Yes.

As far as going seperates, many will argue that no receiver will come close in quality - even with the most modest investment in seperates. Without a doubt the Outlaw combo should top any receiver in terms of sound quality. As far as features, the real question will be "does it do what you want it to do?". Will you be able to switch between all of your VCR, DVD, CD, TV, etc...? The only features I don't see are Bells and Whistles like iPod connectivity and the auto room EQ (YPAO). But you might want to note that most of the extreme high-end seperates aren't employing these types of features either...[]

[robbyrob]

1. Does bright mean high pitched / detailed treble and dark mean low pitched / blended bass sound? That's the impression I have in my head right now but that's only from reading reviews and this forum so please correct me if I'm wrong. What should I look for when doing a brightness test in the room?

8. Thanks! That sounds like a good price. Also, I've heard that the sub should be placed on the left. What are your thoughts on sub placement in a 5.1 setup?

Interesting, I'm most likely going to be using the system mostly for movies as the only 5.1 music I know of is the new Beatles LOVE album. Then again, regular stereo should sound awesome too... when using a receiver for regular CDs, does it use the fronts, centre, and sub or just the fronts? Right now I just use my 10 year old JVC 2.0 mini-system for music so I'll have to bring that down to the basement to do the brightness test.

Like you mentioned, horns project sound forward so maybe that's where the RSes have an advantage for surround sound because they're triangular in shape with one cone (if that's the right word) offset 90 degrees or so from the other. The reason why I'm considering RFs is because they're priced about the same as the RSes and I wouldn't have to worry about mounting them on the walls or getting stands for them. Also, I've seen pictures on this forum of peoples' Heritage series setups and they seem to have just Cornwalls and Herseys making up the 7.1 setup.

I don't care for the iPod stuff but I will have to take a closer look at the other features and do a comparison. Luckily, now I know of a few features to look for such as the ones you mentioned.

Thanks again, Rob.

[DrWho]

1) I don't think any of the descriptors used for audio really mean anything [] It's hard to describe a sound, but you can usually get an idea of what a person is hearing based on context. Really I was just hoping you could describe the behavior of the sound in your room in your own language.

8) The subwoofer should go in a position where it sounds best. You're really going to need to experiment until you find a good spot. At the very least keep the subwoofer on the front wall. Depending on the position your mains end up, you'll want to experiment with sliding the sub along the front wall. I generally recommend to start in the corner where the most gain is going to occur and then moving it out to reduce boominess. I also try to avoid putting the sub further than 3 feet from any wall.

As far as features - just look for things you are going to use. There are endless bells and whistles available and different people are going to prefer different things. So don't got an iPod? Don't worry bout iPod features []

[robbyrob]

That's true, sound is difficult to describe to someone. Nevertheless, I'll post something in my own words once I have a chance to listen to some music in that room on my mini JVC system.

Once again, thank you so much for all of the advice! I'll post what components I end up going with as soon as I make up my mind.

[getech]

I would go with a Denon AVR2801 Receiver, it has video switching via HDMI. It works flawlessly. I have it available brand new and factory sealed for $889 + shipping. Also a small subwoofer would be in order to have a true 5.1 setup. I would suggest a Sunfire Super Junior sub which has 1K watts of power, it really does move some air. This lists for around $1K U.S., yours for $719.

If you have any further questions please drop me an email.

Thanks and good luck!

[robbyrob]

Thanks for your suggestions but I am more comfortable buying everything locally here in Ottawa, Canada because of warranty, duty, and shipping concerns. However, I will be in San Fran at the end of February so if I'm still looking at that time I will contact you for more info. (I assume that you're in San Fran.)

By the way, is that a typo in AVR2801? Did you mean Denon AVR2807?

[JetJockey]

Robbyrob, if you are around Waterloo, would love to give you a real life demo of what Klipsch sounds like in my HT.

RF83,RC62,Mirage OM260 surrounds and Paradigm PW2200 sub backed by the Mirage FXR10 all powered by a Yamaha RX-V2500 soon to be paired with an Anthem MCA50!

[robbyrob]

Thanks JetJockey!

I will let you know if I'm ever in the area.

[robbyrob]

I just wanted to share that I finally have my system and it sounds great!

I ended up going with a Harman Kardon AVR147 receiver, five Klipsch RC52 speakers, and an SVS PB10-NSD subwoofer.

I just got the sub today and there appears to be a humming sound so I'll need to solve that... maybe a shielded RCA cable or plugging it into a noise filtering powerbar will do the trick.

Anyways, thanks to everyone on these forums and to Klipsch for providing this service! I've learned so much just by reading countless posts. There are so many knowledgeable and dedicated people here always willing to offer advice and answer questions.

Thanks again, Rob.

[Arky]

Congrats on your system & enjoy.

[DrWho]

It's always good to hear things turned out well [Y] Now you need to post some pictures []

As far as your sub - do you have cable TV? Or anything with a coax line? It sounds like you've got a ground loop hum and they can be rather tricky to track down, but usually are caused by different potentials on the ground between your power and the coax. The best way to check if it's your cable is to disconnect the coax from everything and see if the hum goes away. If not, then your troubleshooting process is going to be a lot more involved.

I wouldn't start purchasing random filtering equipment until you've sorted out the cause of your problem.

Does the buzz only come through the subwoofer? What happens if you set your mains to large?

[robbyrob]

Thanks guys!

I'll be sure to post some pics soon in the "let's see your..." thread.

Yes, I do have cable TV. Maybe I'm over-reacting about the hum since it's not that noticeable until the gain is turned past the middle. I tried disconnecting the coax but it didn't help... then I tried disconnecting the RCA plug and the hum is still there but not as loud. Is it normal for there to be a humming sound when it's just connected to the wall and nothing else?

[DrWho]

Some hum isn't unheard of, but it's not "normal" per say. What subwoofer did you end up going with? If it's not audible at the listening position I wouldn't worry about it.

[robbyrob]

It's an SVS PB10-NSD. I can hear it at the listening position so it's very annoying at half gain and higher. I could tell that the cardboard box that it was shipped in had been opened before so now I'm wondering if they sent me a previously enjoyed sub with a known issue? I might just return it and get a brand new Klipsch SUB-12.