Speaker Wire Help

[mas]

Yup, you were spoonfed the (fill in the blank - in this case Monster) marketing blurb.

Interesting that you mention LF traveling down one conductor, MF down and another, and HF down another...

In modern terms, this most fascinating device is called a "crossover". I am rather surprised they didn't include an additional conductor for the "noise" to travel down. (Edit: Epiphany!! I think I now understand the bi-wire nonsense...I mean 'belief'...)

The skin effect is a phenomenon well understood for near 100 years. If only it worked as they have re-invented it!

Let's just say that there is engineering based upon physics, and there is marketing based upon whatever can convince someone to believe that something is worth paying money for. This is a case where more effort has been spent on marketing, and not as much on engineering. Unfortunately this seems to be the case with too much in the audio world today.

"You guys can believe what ever you want, but I don't think it's fair to impose your personal believes on lower quality cable on newbies that don't know better. Everyone should tell people to use a High Quality cable, and advice that your best choice for purchasing cables in Online, and leave it at that."

I have a slight problem with the weight you put on "belief" - the root of which means "to wish it so" (not to mention your admonition telling others what they should believe and thus do!) While it can indeed be a powerful motivating factor, it played only a relatively small function in the physics programs in which I attended, except in so far as it seemed to be a vital factor in our expectations regarding the results of some of the tests we took. Unfortunately it didn't help nearly so much in determining the answers on those tests.

Besides, it's not us who are imposing such beliefs on others. But you are of course entitled to believe whatever you chose to believe. Just please be careful that you don't wander too close to the edge and happen to fall off of the earth... I guess that means that the dragons that exist there must be able to fly as well... That really confuses my beliefs...

[nomathjobs]

And here I was, ready to type a well thought our, reasonable reply based in logic - until I read Mark's and thought "why bother?" Excellent post, Mark.

IMHO so much of what is presented as "fact" is based on nothing more than a detailed analysis of what people will pay for obscure "technology" and the best way to get them to do so. Although I have heard that high end wire - interconnect or speaker - will prevent the throughput of the system BIOS being to fast for the cascaded interrupt controller which can cause capacitance leakage in the L2 cache. (that's a joke, folks).

On a more serious note for the better informed out there: isn't audio signal AC by nature? What I mean is (and I'm sure I'm being very clear here):

The speaker driver moves "in and out" so the signal making it do so much also move "in and out" - or more accurately "back and forth along the wire.

All an amp should do is amplify the signal sent to it, so the signal coming into the amp is also "back and forth"

Hence - all the interconnects can't really be "directional" - or they would introduce horrible distortion, right?

Last: how would a low frequency signal "know" to move along a given wire (before a crossover)?

Am I totally missing the point here?

doug (the noob)

[TBrennan]

I'll fall back on my old argument-----if using different wire can make such a big difference how could something so simple get by Wente, Thuras, Fletcher, Olson, Hilliard, Blackburn, Voight, Lansing, Klipsch and Walker?

Maybe one thinks they were too goddam stupid or careless?

[voxr3m]

And here I was, ready to type a well thought our, reasonable reply based in logic - until I read Mark's and thought "why bother?" Excellent post, Mark.

IMHO so much of what is presented as "fact" is based on nothing more than a detailed analysis of what people will pay for obscure "technology" and the best way to get them to do so. Although I have heard that high end wire - interconnect or speaker - will prevent the throughput of the system BIOS being to fast for the cascaded interrupt controller which can cause capacitance leakage in the L2 cache. (that's a joke, folks).

On a more serious note for the better informed out there: isn't audio signal AC by nature? What I mean is (and I'm sure I'm being very clear here):

The speaker driver moves "in and out" so the signal making it do so much also move "in and out" - or more accurately "back and forth along the wire.

All an amp should do is amplify the signal sent to it, so the signal coming into the amp is also "back and forth"

Hence - all the interconnects can't really be "directional" - or they would introduce horrible distortion, right?

Last: how would a low frequency signal "know" to move along a given wire (before a crossover)?

Am I totally missing the point here?

doug (the noob)

You're right about the signal being AC. The electrons quite literally go back and forth.

I'm not sure about what you're asking with the low frequency signal, but there are not seperate signals running through your wire. (i.e. There are not seperate and distinct treble, mid, bass signals running through the wire all at once.) What you really have is one overall signal representing the waveform of the music being amplified. From fourier analysis, you can see that this overall signal is composed of all the frequency's present in the music together (i.e. your overall sound wave is simply the low, mid, and high frequency added together.)

When this overall signal gets to your speaker, your crossover works to send only the higher frequency components of the signal to the tweeters, and sends the lower frequencies to the mid and bass drivers. The speaker crossovers essentally seperate the signal into it's treble, mid, and bass components if you will. They "know" how to seperate based on the crossover network. The cutoff values for the filters are deteremined by the values of the capacitors, inductors, and resistors used and in particular, where and how they are placed in the circuit to form the crossover as a whole.

[Wrench722]

Chad sez: "I wish people that obviously know nothing about High quality cable would stop spreading lies around the forum. If you want to use crap cables with your system, Have at it, but for god sakes don't tell others information that is untrue.

'Cheap' "lamp cord" type speaker wire is just wire. High quality SPEAKER wire, actually has thicker insulation, and Time correction.

P.S. I'm not a sales man. Just some one who knows 1/2 the poeple here don't know what they are talking about when it comes to cables."

Please educate us then? What, pray tell, is TIME CORRECTION. And while you're at it, why do SPEAKER wires need 'thicker insulation', and how thick is thick enough? I want details and test results if you 'know what you're talking about'.

The standard answer you will recieve from most of Klipsch Technical Support people is 'use wire'.

By this we (I) mean, that for most normal home installations (not super powered systems or whole house wiring) good high quality copper wire, zip cord type is acceptable. 16 gauge for up to 50', 14 gauge beyond that. (we like to keep it simple).

That is all. Time Correction, give me a break.

Now I know I'll get flamed for this, But years ago I use to work for a High End Audio/Video store, where once a month we would go to a weekend training, that would include Denon, Yamaha, Monster, Energy Speakers, Bose, Lucas Film etc, etc. We were shown the product, the Testing, Shown differences in nothing but wire alone, on and on.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

It's been awhile, so I may not be explaining this right... But The Time Correction works by taking the inside of the wire and wrapping it around the center non-metallic core, while the wire on the outside runs straight. This makes the inside of the wire longer than the outside. If I remember correctly it is bass that travels on the inside of the wire with least resistance, So Time correction allows all the frequencies to arrive at the speaker at the same time.

That's a rough explanation. But I have heard/seen first hand everything from a $500 system, to a $20,000 system with nothing different but wire/cables, and it is like night an day.

However that is in the perfect environment sound proofing, etc. Can you see/hear the difference at home? Yes! Depending on allot of variables. But as always, the best part of your system is only as good as your weakest link. So even if you have $5000 in cables, and you use 'Lamp Cord' Speaker wire, all the rest of your interconnects are only going to help to the limitations of your Speaker cable (Weakest link)

As Ive said before, I don't agree with paying the SUPER inflated prices of Retail outfits. But you can get Good High End cable online for a negligible difference than the cheap stuff at the local Retail store, and you'll be allot happier with your system.

As for the thicker insulation, thats a no brainier. Insulation helps to block out interference. In todays world, with microwaves, Wireless networks, ETC. Interference is more and more common. How much insulation is too much? Well I don't see how you could have too much, but there is a point where adding more/thicker isn't going to yield any better results.

But 1/32 thick insulation, vs. 1/8 think, Ill take the 1/8th.

You guys can believe what ever you want. I personally don't care, but I am willing to bet very few of you have had the opportunities to compare side by side differences with your own ears/eyes. You can find on the internet ANYTHING, If you believe the sky is pink, you can find a website online that will show you all kinds of information, studies, etc proving the sky is pink. But in the end, I'll go out side and look, if the sky is blue; I am going to believe the sky is blue. I don't care what the studies show. Same with this. I have had the opportunity to hear/see the difference, and there IS a difference.

If you don't feel there is a difference, by all mean buy the cheap stuff. But for god sakes, don't tell people to buy $8000 high end speaker system, and tell them to use cheap cables. That's not fair to the good people trying to get themselves a nice high end system.

Think about this... You pay $8 for a hamburger at a fast food place, you eat it, and within 24 hours its out of your body. You can buy a $20 cable that will be around for rest of your life, and provide you with decades of enjoyment. That's a no brainier!

You guys can believe what ever you want, but I don't think it's fair to impose your personal believes on lower quality cable on newbies that don't know better. Everyone should tell people to use a High Quality cable, and advice that your best choice for purchasing cables in Online, and leave it at that.

-TheChad

I thank you need to read this (Speaker Wire) and this (McIntosh Loudspeaker Division Part 2). If you don't your speaker will do this?

[flannj]

"As for the thicker insulation, thats a no brainier. Insulation helps to block out interference. In todays world, with microwaves, Wireless networks, ETC. Interference is more and more common. How much insulation is too much? Well I don't see how you could have too much, but there is a point where adding more/thicker isn't going to yield any better results.

But 1/32 thick insulation, vs. 1/8 think, Ill take the 1/8th."

Crap! This thread made me decide to run new thicker gauge speaker wire but I ran out before I finished the job.

[Guest " "]

I'll fall back on my old argument-----if using different wire can make such a big difference how could something so simple get by Wente, Thuras, Fletcher, Olson, Hilliard, Blackburn, Voight, Lansing, Klipsch and Walker?

Maybe one thinks they were too goddam stupid or careless?

It did not get by Klipsch....they caught on, and in fact have upgraded their LaScala's for example to be wired with monster cable instead of the familuar white lamp cord.

[voxr3m]

I'll fall back on my old argument-----if using different wire can make such a big difference how could something so simple get by Wente, Thuras, Fletcher, Olson, Hilliard, Blackburn, Voight, Lansing, Klipsch and Walker?

Maybe one thinks they were too goddam stupid or careless?

It did not get by Klipsch....they caught on, and in fact have upgraded their LaScala's for example to be wired with monster cable instead of the familuar white lamp cord.

Same with the internal wiring of some of their Reference subs.

[mas]

I'll fall back on my old argument-----if using different wire can make such a big difference how could something so simple get by Wente, Thuras, Fletcher, Olson, Hilliard, Blackburn, Voight, Lansing, Klipsch and Walker?

Maybe one thinks they were too goddam stupid or careless?

It did not get by Klipsch....they caught on, and in fact have upgraded their LaScala's for example to be wired with monster cable instead of the familuar white lamp cord.

Yup, the "time correction" of the signal within the interconnect was so important that the time differential due to the substantial physical offset of the LF, MF and HF drivers' acoustical centers, which is ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE GREATER, was totally ignored! ...thus effectively neglecting the 100 ton elephant in the middle of the room and worrying about a few crumbs on the floor! Or perhaps the cable even acts as an effective delay line for the various bandpasses!

Yup, that is some mighty magical cable! ...And even more powerful illogic!

And why do I suspect that the type of cable employed was simple OFHC stranded copper and not the magic 'time corrected' cable? - as if time can be corrected! And the irony is that this is the type of cable, generically branded and priced, that most have been recommending, regardless of the branding!

This discussion (as too many discussions of terribly complex physics and marketing realities seem to do around here) has certainly spiraled into the realm of the absurd, with reality taking aback seat to the passionate display of illogic and 'belief'! Dare I even suggest that we have reached the point of rampant stupidity.

Besides, the issue of the use of Monster cable by Klipsch has already been adequately addressed - it was a simple use of co-branding for marketing purposes! Duh! ...All because some folks look soley at brand names! But I suspect these same folks will next be telling me what kind of car I should purchase based upon the brand of ignition wire that is employed...

Bottomline, if you want to use Monster cable or any other cable with 'exotic' claims and prices, please do so. Monster cable is fine, albeit overpriced - as it is basically just OFHC braided copper - as is the majority of cable - branded or generic - that is being recommended.

The fact remains, you can obtain the same quality in cheaper alternatives without the fancy spurious marketing claims. So if you think a fancy label is what distinguishes the physics and performance of a product, you are obviously oblivious to the marketing of brand names and generics, and no amount of reason or physics is going to convince you. You can get the same performance for less without paying for the fancy marketing and the fancy decals that make your car go faster.

And the really neat thing is that I, for one, don't care if you are convinced. Believe whatever you want to believe.

...And thicker (polyethylene) insulation protects one from EMI? So now plastic is an effective insulator for induced electromagnetic noise? Even the guys in the aluminum foil hats have it over 'you' on this one! All I can say is that I certainly hope that you have your cables suspended on those little cable tiptoe thingies! At least they make sense! After all, those dust bunnies can be fierce!

ROTFLMAO - I can't believe I am wasting my time wallowing in the mud regarding this nonsense! ...But its Friday afternoon and time for a laugh!

[Kriton]

Uh, pardon me for interupting but I prefer to make my
own cabling with raw cable from www.bluejeanscable.com - the Canare
Star Quad and the 10 gauge Beldin are killer and for a good
price. The cable they sell is top notch, and comparatively cheap
when set next to the hype of Monster. The locking bananas they
sell are awesome too, and cheap or you can go to www.cobaltcable.com
(go compare the cost of those bananas at cobalt, they are the exact
same components - I know I bought both) and
pay way too much. Shipping by BJ cable is fast and easy - of
course, while I wish I had an affiliation, I do not, etc.

Sorry to direct this thread back to the apparent intention of
the original poster. Now back to the original post-hijacking
channel.

k

[mas]

Canare is good cable...as is the Mogami Neglex 2534 quad mic cable for use in making interconnects as well - and all can be had for much less than Monster and many other even more absurdly priced variants.

Exactly the point some attempted to make before we were informed that these variants lacked a 'crossover with delay'.

[DrWho]

Now I know I'll get flamed for this, But years ago I use to work for a High End Audio/Video store, where once a month we would go to a weekend training, that would include Denon, Yamaha, Monster, Energy Speakers, Bose, Lucas Film etc, etc. We were shown the product, the Testing, Shown differences in nothing but wire alone, on and on....

That's interesting...I used to work for an A/V installation company and we spent way too much time measuring the differences between wires. We were more Pro Audio oriented, but welcomed any manufacturer to come by and try to sell us their crap. Since the warehouse was way too huge, the test setup never got torn down and the wire vendors never ceased to show up...there were thousands of measurements that all concluded the same thing: the only thing that matters is that you use the proper guage. LRC compenents as well as noise rejection characteristics (for the line level cables) were documented. Just for kicks, there was even a listening test involved - and we would make the sales guy tell us which one was his cable. (We even provided an old dentist chair so that his head could be held in the same spot) [6]

For those more interested in the topic, there is an entire field dedicated to the study of transmission lines. I just got finished taking my 3rd class - there's more to go but I think I'll pass. I mention it to point out that the behavior of electricity is very well understood (especially at "low frequencies") and that the engineers designed preamps, amps, speakers, etc.... so that the wires in fact don't make a difference. There's really no magic involved - the whole concept of constant voltage distribution is a solid application of transmission line theory.

But for those that maintain that they hear a difference with wire, I think you might find this article rather interesting:
http://www.ethanwiner.com/believe.html
(it resonates very strongly with my audio "beliefs").

JBL has a nice chart for the wire gauge issue too:
http://www.jblpro.com/pages/general_faq.htm#How%20do%20I%20select%20the%20correct%20wire%20gauge%20for%20my%20speakers?

[mas]

Doc, what's all this talk of 'fisiks'?

You're right, of course.

I think what is being overlooked by many is that in the audio world the really lucrative market is in accessories! And the more money to be made, the more marketing hype is employed!

Oh, and please Chad, don't be offended! You simply stumbled into the perrenial debate that surfaces in exactly the same way every week, month, or couple of months, ad nauseum! ;-) After you have seen it as many times as some of us have, you will understand how some of us have become so jaded with regards to the topic... ;-)

[@silverfox@]

As this debate continues i've come realise that i'm in the persence of intelectual giants ,

freely giving of themselves, bloody marvalous.

[mas]

As this debate continues i've come realise that i'm in the persence of intelectual giants ,

freely giving of themselves, bloody marvalous.

Debate? What debate?

This is simply Friday afternoon comic relief as we 'drive by' gawking at the inanity of the equivalent of a freeway accident otherwise known as marketing hype.

...And I can see that your spell checker doesn't work either. []