NJbob Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 After spending about 7 good hours listening with my two amps. The Fi and ST70, I'm very happy with each, they both do what they do best, SET of PP. I just ordered the VTA70 board for the ST70 since i'm going to keep it. I noticed that the speakers sound best when getting that first full watt. I dont have a meter but I would say 100db. I have been trying to listen at lower levels and I just seem to loose the bass. Then I tried someting. I walked around the room....It seem I get better base response when I'm off to the side (better than sitting center) Can anyone tell me about room placement, why do they sound better off to the side, is their any sudgestions? (No toe in is best) Another note my room is 14 x 15 with 9' ceiling, once i'm done making my new cabinets...(I was going to add a skin but felt if I had to buy two sheet's I might as well buy three and make nice new cabinets. (taking my time, dog house first). Once I get them done I will move them into my living room which is 24 x15..Hopefull that will be even better... Thanks for any and all sudgestions Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 "Another note my room is 14 x 15 with 9' ceiling, once i'm done making my new cabinets...(I was going to add a skin but felt if I had to buy two sheet's I might as well buy three and make nice new cabinets. (taking my time, dog house first)." Great move....!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Hey Bob, Are they pushed into the corners all the way back (for most bass) and toed in (30-45 degrees from the side walls) for best image? Check to see if the polarity (phase) is the same for both speakers. The test is to compare mono with full left and full right on the balance control. Correct matching polarity should make the bass with mono louder than either individual speaker. The LS are 105 dBs at 1 m 1W, distance and room gain probably even out, so you were probably driving less than 1/2 watt (!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 The optimal placement for the LaScalas is going to be corner placement, toed in at ~45 degrees for a number of reasons ranging from minimizing early order reflections, to the Q and horizontal coverage of the MF and HF drivers. As far as bass response anomalies. You state that you are in a nearly square room 14 x15 with 9 foot ceilings. Considering the near equal dimensions coupled with a ceiling that is not far off from being ~ equal to being a multiple of the length and width of the wall dimensions, you are looking at close groupings of room modes center frequencies and the summation of the various modes. And I would also stick my neck out and predict adjoining rooms, alcoves, and the normal variance that is typical of so many rooms. But without knowing any of the contributing particulars, I suspect that your primary issue is the room itself. Your first issue will be addressing the LF room modes below 300Hz most likely with a combination of corner traps and Helmholtz resonators. You will also experience similar problems with the larger room with the dimensions being near to multiples of 8 feet. But don't feel picked on. This is the first issue that any room must address! Even one with the proverbial 'ideal' dimensions! The only advantage they have is that the center frequencies of the resonances are more evenly spaced resulting in a minimum of mode summation resulting in the individual peaks exhibiting less gain and making each resonance peak slightly work to damp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Congratulations on your new La Scalas! The assumption that the bass issue is mostly likely due to room modes is certainly on the money (MAS seems to be getting more cautious these days, Hmmm....). The issue of trapping etc is the logical step, but not the next step. These treatments are expensive; however, they can also be constructed DIY and even done in a fashion so that your girlfriend will not kill you in your sleep. As such the next step is to get some sort of physical measurement of your room or else you are shooting in the dark. Relying exclusively on room geometry to predict the treatments is not a great way (for reasons that MAS pointed out). Trying to do it "by ear" will take forever (if you are lucky) and you will probably end up going through many "wrong" treatments (eg, the resonators that MAS mentioned are tuned to the problem area). If you simply go out and start spending money on store-bought room treatments, it can be expensive and yes, you will get a difference in sound (the effects are quite audible) but the differences may not be improvements. Gee, MAS was probably on the verge of giving the same advice, are you slowing down buddy?? Good Luck, -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Gee, MAS was probably on the verge of giving the same advice, are you slowing down buddy?? Without measurements!??[] ...Then I would be as valuable as some of those sites who claim to be able to analyze your room and sell you a package (for several thousand bucks!) from a napkin drawing! [8-)] I was just trying to provide a 30K foot view of what is most likely happening. And even with a mode calculator I wouldn't even try to guess at what is really happening regarding the modes as I have never encountered a real world room that came close to what the overly (and necessarily) simplistic calculators suggested. All the mode calculators are good for is to give you the idea that modes can and do exist. But as a practical employable tool??? You've got to be kidding? I figured that mentioning LF room modes was a safe bet, as they are fundamental to every small room! But as Tom very appropriately pointed out, the solutions (especially with Helmholtz resonators, are VERY specific!). But I feel pretty safe in saying that placing corner traps indiscriminately (meaning everywhere there is a wall surface intersection) will only do your room good. Tom is right! I certainly was not implying that you should run out and order some pre-fab room solution! The couple of hundred bucks spent having the room measured (before and for proof of performance fine tuning) will save you thousands. And just think, you just might end up with a real solution that actually addresses the REAL problems as opposed to the supposed problems! Slowing down - heck I am up to my ears and poor as a church mouse trying to change formats with my testing apparatus - as I carefully avoid naming names and products - while being about ready to tell both 'political' camps to take a jump! Oh, but TDS and MLS are still foundational! I guess this is where I need to again threaten to find the 20 minutes or so every week to start churning out a simple overview of the small acoustical space and the treatment process. But between time constraints and a simple goal that expanded into a far too lofty ambition of perhaps using a room and real measurements to walk through the process, I think if I am ever to do it I need to simply explain the basic concepts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Check out http://www.rivesaudio.com/resources/listening_room/frame.html Offers some good positions to try out and make up your own opinion as to what works best for your ears. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 In case anyone was confused when I advocated the need for "Physical Measurements" I meant measures made with a spectrum analyzer or an osciloscope, not measures made with a yard stick. "Physical" was opposed to "subjective". Regarding the napkin drawings, how many rooms are simple rectangles with a ceiling at a fixed height? Mine has an adjacent entry way with a half flight of stairs. It opens up to a hallway. It has wide doorway into a largish kichen, it has a 4x8 cutout into the kitchen (a popular feature of raised ranch houses from the 70s), partially hardwood, partially carpeted, valance boxes above the drapes and some large furniture and book cases. Even the furniture will make a contribution when the wavelengths are not so long. Try and get all that on a napkin, let alone model it. -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Check out http://www.rivesaudio.com/resources/listening_room/frame.html Offers some good positions to try out and make up your own opinion as to what works best for your ears. Good luck. Bart, with all due respect, the position should apply to the one you assume as you bend forward and open your wallet. If that places your ears in a more optimal position, well that is a secondary benefit. What Tom mentioned - coupled spaces - and other anomalies render ANY current modeling package (and I HAVE the FULL blown package of EASE- and trust me, they DON'T have a better one!) in a small room as limited at BEST. You cannot accurately predict the complex interaction of the incredibly complex issues with reliability in a small room. Thus the need and use for acoustical measurements. You eliminate the attempt at modeling and simply measure what is real! And then you address specific treatments to fix real problems and then measure again to verify that they indeed had the intended affect. And repeat or modify as necessary. And you will ultimately have better results and save money over the 'cheap' alternatives! I know that everyone seems hell bent on avoiding this thing called real acoustical room measurement and analysis (ie, TEF, EASERA, SMAART), but the fact is that all of the seemingly easier alternatives are actually more expensive and less effective than just doing the proper thing! I guess I just can't get over the lengths people are willing to go to, and the money they are willing to spend, all to avoid doing what they seem to have such an uncanny fear and avoidance of. And there, I even ended the sentence with a preposition and I am not going to go back and fix it! ...................................... "...all to avoid doing that which they seem to have such an uncanny fear and thus seek to avoid." OK, so I lied. ...Ain't we anal! But at least I didn't "go back" and fix it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Check out http://www.rivesaudio.com/resources/listening_room/frame.html Offers some good positions to try out and make up your own opinion as to what works best for your ears. Good luck. Bart, with all due respect, the position should apply to the one you assume as you bend forward and open your wallet. If that places your ears in a more optimal position, well that is a secondary benefit. What Tom mentioned - coupled spaces - and other anomalies render ANY current modeling package (and I HAVE the FULL blown package of EASE- and trust me, they DON'T have a better one!) in a small room as limited at BEST. You cannot accurately predict the complex interaction of the incredibly complex issues with reliability in a small room. Thus the need and use for acoustical measurements. You eliminate the attempt at modeling and simply measure what is real! And then you address specific treatments to fix real problems and then measure again to verify that they indeed had the intended affect. And repeat or modify as necessary. And you will ultimately have better results and save money over the 'cheap' alternatives! I know that everyone seems hell bent on avoiding this thing called real acoustical room measurement and analysis (ie, TEF, EASERA, SMAART), but the fact is that all of the seemingly easier alternatives are actually more expensive and less effective than just doing the proper thing! I guess I just can't get over the lengths people are willing to go to, and the money they are willing to spend, all to avoid doing what they seem to have such an uncanny fear and avoidance of. And there, I even ended the sentence with a preposition and I am not going to go back and fix it! ...................................... "...all to avoid doing that which they seem to have such an uncanny fear and thus seek to avoid." OK, so I lied. ...Ain't we anal! But at least I didn't "go back" and fix it! When did I mention a wallet?or money,you should look at the site before commenting on thier recomendations. Your right, don't trust your own ears, trust some electrical measurements, they must be better. Why are there human studio engineers? Beats me. That Stadivarius sucked, cause he used his ears and not a real computer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Seldom has a point been so misconstrued. (And I guess that it would take all the fun out of this if I explain that the post was not aimed at YOU but instead at the supposed web service.) Let me explain the joke... That is just one of the sites who, for a fee and a drawing, proposes to analyze your room and to then sell you a very expensive 'room in a box' solution. And as to why there are acoustical engineers who take ACOUSTICAL measurements (and who, at least when dealing with acoustical issues in actual rooms are not off measuring the electrical measurements of electronic gear) when there is a web site pretending to accurately remotely analyze your room from a complex napkin drawing...I really don't know. As evidently they are wasting their time. But I might suggest saving the money you send them and using it instead to invest in a Ouija board. Oh, and by the way, you are invited to design and build an appropriate Helmholtz resonator to accurately address real room anomalies 'by ear'. Many missed the reference to "Flatlanders" in another post. I wonder if the same will occur if I use the term "Luddites" in reference to the fear of the appropriate use of the proper measuring equipment. [][] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 [] Seldom has a point been so misconstrued. (And I guess that it would take all the fun out of this if I explain that the post was not aimed at YOU but instead at the supposed web service.) Let me explain the joke... That is just one of the sites who, for a fee and a drawing, proposes to analyze your room and to then sell you a very expensive 'room in a box' solution. And as to why there are acoustical engineers who take ACOUSTICAL measurements (and who, at least when dealing with acoustical issues in actual rooms are not off measuring the electrical measurements of electronic gear) when there is a web site pretending to accurately remotely analyze your room from a complex napkin drawing...I really don't know. As evidently they are wasting their time. But I might suggest saving the money you send them and using it instead to invest in a Ouija board. Oh, and by the way, you are invited to design and build an appropriate Helmholtz resonator to accurately address real room anomalies 'by ear'. Many missed the reference to "Flatlanders" in another post. I wonder if the same will occur if I use the term "Luddites" in reference to the fear of the appropriate use of the proper measuring equipment. [][] [] They were offererd as suggestions ideas where to start on thier non paying recommendations. [] [] Is that advice to start from the web site's free advice a bad place to start? [][][:^)][8o|][][][:$][] Starting from that is using ownes one ear a bad place to start? [][][:^)][8o|][][][:$][] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Hey you! My comments were directed at their primary purpose, selling you a solution by mail! And I will go you one better and tell you that I don't even need ears to say that there are LF issues in a small room! So dare come back again and I will taunt you a second time! [] Gee, I thought that went rather well, if I do say so myself! And I didn't even have to mention the elderberry thing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feersum dreadnot Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 I've likely got similar issues, with 4 fortes in a 14' x 15' room, door to the kitchen on the right side, door to the media closet on the left, and a 8' x 8' glass sliding door on the back wall. there is a large leather couch and chair in the room, an area rug down, but not much else (well, a dartboard, a few plants, a large cactus, and some other asst stuff). So, where to start with "treatments" ? Would I go to far wrong with 4 corner "traps" like these - http://www.realtraps.com/tri-corner.htm? and maybe some of their other small ones on the walls? thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJbob Posted February 13, 2007 Author Share Posted February 13, 2007 Go boys go,,,,I appreciate all the discussion and definatly listen and learn. My room does have a doorway to the left and a opening to a big room on the right after 4'. the speakers are 6 feet apart about 2' from that left door opening and 2' from a 4' short wall on the right.. I know this is not optimum but this is where I'm doing all my testing. This is not the final resting place as I'm building new cabinets for living room duty (Man these cabinets are weak, if you tap them it sounds hollow and rotted) I do hear the banging inside if I put my ear to against the side Thanks again Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 []...[] []...[][][:^)][8o|][][][:$][]...[][][:^)][8o|][][][:$][]... Dang, how many voices you got going on in there?!? [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 []...[] []...[][][:^)][8o|][][][:$][]...[][][:^)][8o|][][][:$][]... Dang, how many voices you got going on in there?!? [] You have to love this site, as long as you incert a smiley of some kind, no one takes offense or understands your point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 lol - my apologies if I offended...I was just commenting on all the smileys used. For what it's worth, I totally agreed with your point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 (MAS seems to be getting more cautious these days, Hmmm....). Couple hundred more post should do it..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 As recommened above, start with them in the corners, preferably a long wall. I wonder if baby crib matresses would work as well as the expensive stuff. I have found that something good to try is the packing foam for hard drives - these are when you buy 20 drives at a time. It's a big deep peice with 20 1x5 inch slots (two rows of ten). They weigh nothing and will hang on a pin in the wall. Find a computer store that builds/repairs PCs and ask them to save these things for you. I've attached a picture to give you the idea - mine are black instead of pink and the slots are bigger... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.