Amp match for La Scala's ? On a Budget ...

[LyleS]

Hi, I've tried my La Scala's with my Onkyo Integra DTR-7 receiver, and was not very impressed in 2 channel audio mode (Kinda Dry sound ..)

I am happier with a NAD 7140 receiver powering the La Scala's via pre-out main in link from Onkyo.

I've noticed two power amps locally that seem to be reasonably priced used. (250 to 350.00)

One is a Denon POA-2800, and the other is Carver M-400t cube amp.

Is it worthwhile to change out the NAD for a used amp in this price range, or should I hold off till I can save the coin for a used Bryston, or Anthem amp ?

Anyone have experience with Carver and La Scala, or Denon and La Scala combinations ?

Lyle.

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Gear: Klipsch La Scala ;THX home cinema: KT-LCR, KT-SW15

Onkyo Integra DTR-7 THX

Panasonic RP91 DVD

NAD 7140 Stereo receiver powering LaScalas

[Colin]

mention Carver and I just have to chime in -

I have cranked my Cornwalls with 750 noisy Carver watts to play digital cannon shots (world's strangest musical instrument), but only for ear splitting moments while I held my breath. The big old horns can certainly handle brief bursts of tremendous power.

The combination of the two components however did not make music. The noisy THD of the amp wore out my ears at normal listening levels and eventually, over a period of time listening, it lost its pleasure and stereos fell to the bottom of my hobby list.

Some older solid state amps, like the super powerful Carver I had once or the super clean Pioneer I have now, have tremendous amounts of Total Harmonic Distortion down in the micro-watt range. Like other amplifiers their THD ratings are from the middle of their output curve, where THD is at its lowest, not the low end or the high end, where THD climbs like a rocket after lift off.

Unfortunately, as I learned from the insane posters on the Klipsch BBS, ultra efficient horns idle along on only a few milli-watts of power. Most of the time, they do not need all that much power. It is only for those rare microseconds of sonic shock, like the levered thump of the kick drum, that the speakers suddenly cry for instantaneous surges of hundreds of watts. But those microcosmic spikes soon pass and the speakers are idling along again with barely a push from the amp.

That is why tweaking audiophiles the world over gush over the benefits of flea powered tube amps coupled with big old horns. The combination has been around since the fifties, yet even as 2-channel sound begins to exit the audio stage, the demand for low powered, but sweet sounding, tube amps seems to be increasing.

I would look at using what you have now as a pre-amp only, if you can, and get a demo amp or something like the ASL Wave 8s (only $200) to experiment with tube sound. If you like the tube sound, then you can step up to a more refined and fulfilling amp. The ultra-efficient LaScalas are certainly worth a high quality tube amp such as the Bottleheads, Wright or others.

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Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing!

This message has been edited by Colin on 12-17-2001 at 11:55 PM

[IndyKlipschFan]

Look hard at the Denon. It has a warm, and natural sound, and would make the Scala's sing the song of LOVE to your ears!!!

[mobile homeless]

Lately, I have been writing 50 paragraphs instead of two. I apologize. A few suggestions:

EICO HF-81: Can I say this with a straight face? The EICO HF-81 is perhaps the best sub $1200 push pull tube amplifier I have ever heard...and all for $100-200. It mates so well with vintage Klipsch, one is tempted to just stop here and enjoy the music. My top recommendation for under $1000 push pull. Eats up Jolida, ASUSA, etc. Negative? Vintage piece and some capicitor replacement down the line. Still, one of my favorite amps. Period.

ASL AV8 Monoblocks: Colin made a nice cheap suggestion - I havent heard these yet, but from what most say, it's a deal that is hard to beat and will sell used if you dont like if for pennies less. Neat little tube amps. Will smoke the Denon and Onkyo is easy bet.

Jolida 302B/202A: I have owned the Jolida 302B and it was a fine integrated tube amp featuring the musical and robust EL-34 tube. This is a good amp and always attracts attention when someone walks in... Great used buys and responds well to tube rolling and mods. 202A is cheaper and much of the midrange magic if not as solid a bottom.

Ok...it's too late now..perhaps I'll add some more tomorrow when my eyes can focus...

kh

s y s t e m

Linn LP-12/Linn Basic Plus/Sumiko Blue Point

Rega Planet

Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Creek OBH-12 Passive Preamp

Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

DIYCable Wire - Various

1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico

Alternate Components:

EICO HF-81 - btw, perfect Cornwall match

ASUSA A-4 EL-34 UL

ProAc Mini-Towers

EICO HFT-90 Tube FM Tuner

Sumo Aurora Tuner

Nakamichi CR-7af>s>

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 12-18-2001 at 05:14 AM

[P Ward]

Come on mobil, it was only 3:22 am on first post and edited at 5:14 am I was just starting to wake up at that time...

I was also looking for some tubes. Thanks for the post!

Paul

[LyleS]

Hi guys, thanks for the posts...

I appreciate the information on Tube Amps.

I wonder about having tubes in a house with small kids.. Don't want them to drop a toy on one of those glass bottles ...

I'm also concerned about dynamics for Home Theater. I guess that unlike many here, I came at this hobby from the Movie side first, rather than the music side, and while I"m learning more and more about the joys of 2 channel music reproduction, my first love is movies.

For that reason, and with the kid factor I was planning on staying with solid state amplification for now ...

I've read in a few places about the benefit of Class A amplification and that is why I am intrigued by the Denon amp, as I believe that it operates in class A mode for at least 20 to 30 W /channel, which is more than likely the primary operating range for the LaScala's, even with some of my more bombastic movie soundtracks ...

So, to be more precise, any recommendations for Class A solid state amps, or other solid state amps, that can be found on the used market. I don't see the benefit of purchasing a brand new amp, when there is so much fine vintage amplification looking for a home, that should make my La Scala's sing ...

Ok, reality check, I'm on a budget here ....

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Gear: Klipsch La Scala ;THX home cinema: KT-LCR, KT-SW15

Onkyo Integra DTR-7 THX

Panasonic RP91 DVD

NAD 7140 Stereo receiver powering LaScalas

[Colin]

The ultra low power requirements for horns is one area that tweaking audiophiles love about their big old horns. The ultra low power required to drive horns to stunning musical peaks is a double edged sword. High efficiency cuts both ways. While it is entirely possible to enjoy thrillingly good sound from as little as one meager watt on ultra-efficient speakers, it is also possible to hear every revealing detail from them.

What horn owners save on wattage, they spend on quality components. This difference makes horn a different world for owners. The tales told at high-end salons have entirely different meanings for them.

Take a horn speaker rated at 100 decibels for one watt at one meter (dB/w/m) for example. In a average carpeted living room of 238 square feet and eight foot ceilings, this ultra-efficient speaker will need only a hundredth of a watt to create conversational level sound at the listening spot. Horns rated at 100 dB/w/m need only about .0078 to make a 1 kHz note at 73 dB at a listening spot 11 feet away. This is on a hand-held Radio Shack SPL meter, so allow one to two dBs variation in measurement.

Many musical peaks on a CD are about 15 dB above the average level. This means that normal listening on the big old horns will require only about 1/4 of a watt to play 88 dB musical peaks. This low wattage is not performed by all amps equally.

Should a fast musical crescendo should suddenly peak 30 dB higher than the average listening level, the power requirements for 103 dB are only 8 watts. While my custom Bottlehead 2A3 Paramours can put out only 6 watts at maximum, at normal listening level, you are not likely to hear them clipping. Only when they crank out 110 dBs can you tell the amps, but not the speaker, are straining.

So while Nelson Pass tells us that any kind of Class A amplifier is the best for music reproduction, the ultra-low power requirements of big old horns make the delicate sound of Class A, hard-wired, flea-powered tube amps a serious possibility.

Covers can be provided for tube amps, and some solid state amps do have Class A construction, but both considerations are often overwhelmed by what "tube-ophiles" describe as the "rightness" of the sound. Especially when the tube amps are coupled to big old horns.

Start small if you wish. Is that a center channel you have listed there? Try a single dirt cheap ASL Wave 8 tube amp for just the center channel. I tried this alignment with my crusty old Blaupunkt radio and a typical Pioneer/Infinity combination with great results. The vocals and horns coming from tube radio in the center added warmth to the sound.

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Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing!

[jjcarr]

You may want to take a look at the Monarchy SM-70 amp. It has a very tube-like sound and provides ample power for the La Scala. I have the SM-100's and they are way too much power for the La Scala.

This is, of course, only if you absolutely can't do tubes. A good SET 2A3 is hard to beat on horns.

James

[soundog]

Mobil Homeless -

Just got an HF81 in original working condition I think (haven't received it yet) off of ebay for $110. Its missing a knob I think - should be fun to update - what are your suggestions? - could I get a copy of the original manual? Thanks in advance for any help you can give me - this wil be fun.

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Soundog's HT Systems

This message has been edited by soundog on 12-28-2001 at 05:51 PM

[soundog]

Lyle-

You may want to consider what I did - use a great Home Theater receiver = the Outlaw 1050 but use a stereo tube preamp into its direct inputs (bypasses preamp) -I get a great sound with my Klipschorns - I have an updated version of an old dynaco design - old dynaco or eico preamps off of ebay might be the way to go - the tubes are covered. As you can see from above = I plan to experiment with an old Eico integrated and I'll report on it vs. the dynaco-outlaw setup when I get it and after I upgrade some of the parts. By the way the Outlaw all by its self is very very good with both my Heritage and LCR/THX systems.

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Soundog's HT Systems

This message has been edited by soundog on 12-28-2001 at 06:05 PM

[jazman]

soundog,

Yo, I was considering that HF-81 as source for parts but I slept through it. :-) Glad it went to someone who takes their sound seriously. I purchased an HF-81, mobiles suggestion,(see Bi-wiring Belles) connected it today. The seller had already updated some components, some of which can be found on pages linked to mobiles page. The only small negative with this unit is a loose volume control post,(no problem). To say I'm all smiles is an understatement. This amp has completely transformed the quality of the sound of music from my Belles. I don't think anyone could blindly A B the ss 100 wpc Nak, vs the 14 wpc HF-81, and not pick the HF-81 as more of everything. A dramatic difference! Mobile's page link has a ton of HF-81 informational links. I'm only half way through reading them, hoping to find any recs for tubes to further improve this already incredible sound.

I hope your HF-81 is up and operating soon to experience what I have. It's forever changed my mindset with respect to tube power and it's sound. This is a day I will not forget.

Future additions to this music only system;

AH!Tjoeb 99 CD player to replace current Phillips:

Rega Planar 3 TT, RB300 tonearm; Elys cart.:

I'm excited about hearing my music(Jazz) collection again, both CD and vinyl.

Klipsch out.

[soundog]

Thanks - glad you got some rest! I'm going to try it alone and as an amp with my Dynaco PAS4 tube preamp and also compare it to the Outlaw 1050. Should be interesting and fun. EICO kits were what I made as a teenager - a mono HF-61 and stereo preamp HF-85and two HF30s plus the HF90 FM tunner. Missed them all as soon as I made a big mistake and traded them in on a fancy transistor receiver that didn't even come close. By the way I see the HF90 on ebay but never see the multiplex stereo adaptor.

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Soundog's HT Systems

[mobile homeless]

The EICO HF-81 has an all triode preamp section that I think is part of the magic of this little integrated. Of course, the excellent output transformers are also a big part of the package. I still find it amazing how much soul this little amp can deliever. Indeed, I have to say it sounds WAY more powerful than its 14wpc would indicate. The whole power thing is so overrated I actually dont know where to begin. How can you explain to someone on here that your 3.5wpc SET Monoblock on vintage Cornwalls has more slam and impact in the bass than a 250wpc Bryston 4B-ST on a normal set of speakers?

As for the EICO, I would really consider trying it as an integrated as well as I felt the sound was a sum of the parts experience. I tried it as a power amp from my Cary SLP-70 tube pre as well as a Creek Passive and felt the integrated was actually more magical if slightly less transparent. I have to say, I preferred it as an integrated and even though I have several top notch tube preamps lying about, I run my EICO without aid.

For some upgrade/tweak options, take a look at the Tweaks page at my EICO review site. Someday, I will actually finish that damn thing (along with my Cornwall page).

jazman, I am happy your EICO came working and in great condition. I have been lucky twice as well, although I did have to replace the two power supply filter caps (already done on your unit). By the way, you can tighten up that volume control I believe, unless they changed it. Just remove the knobs and the front panel via the screws on the side of the face plate. This will expose the pots with the hex nut to tighten the controls.

See pic above. While youre at it, remove the brass plate as well for some serious shining with NeverDull!

kh

ps- jazman, unfortunately, many of the EICOs I have seen have phono sections that are left untouched and perhaps not working as they should. One of mine needed some work. Unless the guy that had it before you listened to vinyl, there is a chance it might not be quite up to snuff. Let me know as there are options.

s y s t e m

Linn LP-12/Linn Basic Plus/Sumiko Blue Point

Rega Planet

Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect

1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover

system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s>

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 12-29-2001 at 09:12 AM

[jazman]

Lyle,

Take the plunge to throw out your past ideas about amp power sources and treat yourself to some tube power. Since Belles and LaScalas are so close in design, you will certainly be pleasantly surprised if as not blown away with the result as I have been.

mobile,

HF-81 Update.

I mis stated what was loose. It's only the Treble pot and minor. I'm still in a pleasant state of awe of this HF-81. I can't believe how tight and full this makes the Belles sound. I feel no need for a sub at this point, as many sugggest I will need to, as the bass bottom is very defined and tight. I'm sure most would not believe how good this vintage piece is, but I can't say enough.

I have already ordered new EL84's, the Ei Yugo and Sovtek matched quads from Triode Elec. to roll the Tesla EL84s(unmatched,3and 1) to experiment with what my ear reports from each. Also planning to add new rectifiers, probably NOS from Tube World. May get present B&O TT connected to test inputs tonight or tomorrow while waiting for the Rega to arrive.

Klipsch out

[soundog]

Jazman-

Thanks for you posting - please keep me informed = my HF=81 will arrive this week sometime.

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Soundog's HT Systems

[mobile homeless]

Hey Mdeneen, who needs to blueprint ye olde EICO or Dynaco when you have tone controls?

Heh...

kh

ps - The willimason HF-81 eats the Ultralinear Dynaco SCA-35 for lunch. The EICO has a much better preamp section. The SCA-35 uses a PCB board instead of point to point wiring, needs matched quad of 6BQ5, has solid state rectification instead of two EZ-81 tube rectification (one per channel), is wired ultralinear with less quality trans, and in general sounds nowhere near as good as the HF-81. Still, it is an intriguing option, just dont expect it to match the EICO in sheer quality of sound. It has nowhere near the guts.

pps. For those frightened by the prospect of things like faulty power supply caps, learning to solder a pair in the EICO is actually a very easy thing. And if the units still have the original orange paper electrolytics, they usually go bad in a graceful way with a slight hum developing and getting worse over time. Here is a shot of the EICO wiring (dont let it frighten you!) See the PS caps in orange. These are usually the first things to need replacement.

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 12-31-2001 at 03:30 AM

[soundog]

Your postings and the pictures with them are truly exceptional. Thanks a million for these.

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Soundog's HT Systems

[LyleS]

Thanks for all the information about tube amps. I guess I owe it to myself to try and find one to try with my setup.

Lyle.

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Gear: Klipsch La Scala ;THX home cinema: KT-LCR, KT-SW15

Onkyo Integra DTR-7 THX

Panasonic RP91 DVD

NAD 7140 Stereo receiver powering LaScalas

[jazman]

mobile, soundog,

The phono inputs are working. It's going to be a vinyl New Years Eve.

Happy New Year to all!

Klipsch out.

PS. Noticed slight hum from right channel with TT idle. May not have noticed before when idle in AUX. More listening time required using the additional inputs. Still sounds great overall.

[soundog]

I should be so lucky - turntables often require a ground wire to the amp to reduce/eliminate hum. Of course, there could be a number of other causes also. I probably will not have a chance to play with the HF81 before I leave for the CES/T.H.E. expos in Vegas.

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Soundog's HT Systems