Bang & Olufsen 2402 TT Setup Help

[LoudnClear]

Hey all, I'm about as green as they come with turntables and vinyl, but I'm exploring.

I bought a B&O Beogram 2402 today for very cheap. It has a MMC 20E cartridge.

I read in a past thread that Thebes bought a 2402 and got it up and running with some help from pauln. You two available to help me a bit? Or any other experience B&O people out there?

There's no manual, and I just did some experimentation to try getting it up and running with an album before connecting it to my stereo.

A) I tried to press 33 and have it take off playing the album from the tonearm rest position. The tonearm moves over to the edge of the album, but it does not lift up and bumps into the side of the album. Is there something I can adjust to fix this and get the arm to lift then drop at the right time?

After A) I lifted the arm a bit and set it on the lead in and the unit began tracking as normal and I could hear the stylus playing music. I lifted the arm and moved it to the middle of the side of the album and it played fine. I lifted again and set it on the last song on the album and the arm would not track in the groove, it actually moved a bit toward the outer edge of the album and remained static, playing the same groove over and over but not following it in. There appears to be a combination of too little tracking force and a somewhat strong outward force when the arm is in the inner portion of the album. Any help here?

C) When I press stop with the arm on the album and playing, the arm slides accross the album, doesn't lift, and returns to the rest postion. I did this twice to be sure it was repeatable and it happens every time. It is related to issue A, so if I can get the arm lifting and dropping, this will be OK.

D) When I press pause with the arm on the album and playing, the platter comes to a slow stop with the stylus still in contact with the vinyl. Is this normal or is this just a symptom of the lift not working?

E) After pressing pause and having the platter stopped with the stylus in contact with the vinyl, if I press pause again, the platter starts spinning and the arm starts to drag across the vinyl toward the middle of the album. I suspect the arm should not move, rather it should stay in the same spot and continue playing from the pause spot. What's going on with the inward motion after the pause restart.

Thanks for any help you guys can give to get me up and running if possible.

Kimball

[Klipsched with Yamahas]

Congrats on the B&O,. but rocks are smarter than me when it comes to diagnosing electronics.

There.....I admitted it! Those B&O's aren't very tech friendly IMO, but patiently wait for someone to chime in behind me

[pauln]

What should happen is the arm should lift slightly, swing over and drop gently into the lead in groove. It should push on the little black ring around the spindle to measure the weight of the record and correctly choose the speed and the position of the leadin groove. At the end of the record it should lift the arm and swing it back to the home position. If you pause the arm during play the arm should lift and stays in that position. Then it should drop down gently at that same position when you resume play, or move back to the home position if you pushed Stop. The stylus should track the record perfectly without hanging up, skipping, or dragging across the record during position movement functions.

From what you describe, and what some others have found with these tables is that the lifting mechanism lubrication gets thick and gummy if the table is stored without use for a long period. Whenever the lifting (and thereby the down cueing as well) mechanism is impared one will see exactly what you describe - position movements that drag the record and pausing functions that let the stylus stay on the record. Fortunately, this is an easy fix if you can use a squirt of cleaner to dissolve the lube and replace it with a 1/4 drop of bicycle chain oil or similar.

If it mistracks either the tracking force is too light and/or the antiskating is incorrect and/or the stylus is in bad shape from wear or damage. Since the antiskating in these tables is automatic and continuously adjusting itself across the record (using a mechanical system of inclined planes and ball bearings in the vertical spindle of the arm mount) it rarely goes out of adjustment. Therefore I would check the tracking force. You must not trust or assume the little slider that indicates the tracking force is accurate until you have zero balanced the arm yourself. The way to do this is to set the slide at "0" and adjust the counter weight so that the arm just floats or balances (this is with the cartridge on and the stylus guard off, if you have one). At this point wiggle the arm up and down and left and right to sense any resistance in the arm mount bearings. If so, this also may be from stiff lube through extended storeage. Once the arm is freely easily movable and will float at the "0" setting, then place the tracking force slider at about 1.5gram and see how that does. If you have a magnifying glass you can look at the stylus, the 100x lighted hand microscope ($10) from Radio Shack is better, a real lab scope is best. If your stylus is bad, let me know; I have some spare cartridges.

If relubing the lifter (about 1/4 drop is all it takes) does not solve the lifting problem, you might look at the actuating mechanism for it under the platter. On most of the electronic B&O's there is a pair of black plastic gears close to the little gear that is part of the platter spindle. Both of these two gears have a white section across their middle that slides so as to engage their teeth with the platter spindle gear (from where the power to do the movements comes from). Both of the two gears with the sliding teeth sections just spend all their time waiting for a signal to slide and engage their teeth - the one closest to the front is the lifting and lowering actuator. The one at the back is for swinging of the arm over to the leadin groove and returning the arm to home. You can see that each of these gears actually performs two functions; one does lifting and lowering, the other does left swinging and right swinging. This seems a little peculiar at first but the mechanism is quite clever. The lifting and lowering always alternate; you never lift twice without lowering in between and visa versa. Likewise, you never swing left without having swung right and visa vesa. The way this is done with the gears is that for gear , the first rotation performs the one function, then the second rotation - in the same direction - performs the other function.

If you have the platter off, remove the belt so you may turn the platter by hand. Look at the sliding sections of the gears (sections are white, the gears are black). You will see that the white sliding sections have a raised part for you to slide them manually. If you do so while carefully turning the platter clockwise they will engage and perform the functions for you. The black peice just around the spindle is a record size sensor so you will need to set a heavy nut or socket on it to hold it down - this will ensure all the operations are for 12" and 33.3rpm. If you spend some time turning the platter and manually making the operations you will begin to see how it all works (mechanically) and may find why the lifting mechanism is failing.

Anyway, try these things and see if it doesn't come around.

[LoudnClear]

Thanks for the details. Couple of quick questions before I try some of your tips:

You talk about relubing the lifter. Which mechanism is the lifter that I need to clean then put the oil on? Is it in the arm mount area? Can I see it from above when I take the arm's lead weighted cover off? What I do see is under the arm, back near the arm mount area, there is a black plastic surface that is horizontal and an adjustable screw pokes through and rides on that plastic surface. I don't see any way this could actuate lift/drop, its all solid. Otherwise I can only see the arm mount bearing(s) and I don't see anything that looks like it could lift the arm there? So is the lifter that I need to lube under the arm mount assembly or can I see it from above? Can you describe it so I can find it?

Other thing: When you say take the platter off and remove the belt: There is still a small plate in there with a few holes I can see through. That has to stay on there while I'm doing the manual testing right? And I just look through the holes at opportune times to see the action and work the white sliders.

thanks very much for your help,

Kimball

[ScorpsFan]

Loud & Clear,

I have a B & O TX-2 which is a tangental tracker so I won't be much help, but here is a link, if you join the forum there you will have access to manuals and information about your turntable as well as varients of it which may be helpful.

BTW, pauln's info is perfect, sounds like you may need some pictures, hopefully you will find them at BeoWorld.

Best of luck!

http://www.beoworld.org/

[pauln]

Thanks for the details. Couple of quick questions before I try some of your tips:

You talk about relubing the lifter. Which mechanism is the lifter that I need to clean then put the oil on? Is it in the arm mount area? Can I see it from above when I take the arm's lead weighted cover off? What I do see is under the arm, back near the arm mount area, there is a black plastic surface that is horizontal and an adjustable screw pokes through and rides on that plastic surface. I don't see any way this could actuate lift/drop, its all solid. Otherwise I can only see the arm mount bearing(s) and I don't see anything that looks like it could lift the arm there? So is the lifter that I need to lube under the arm mount assembly or can I see it from above? Can you describe it so I can find it?

Other thing: When you say take the platter off and remove the belt: There is still a small plate in there with a few holes I can see through. That has to stay on there while I'm doing the manual testing right? And I just look through the holes at opportune times to see the action and work the white sliders.

thanks very much for your help,

Kimball

The lifter on my model is a ring surface that elevates a vertical pin under the arm at the mount. In the 2402 I think the lifter is a little arm with a "v" shaped end that sits under the tone arm at the mounting area - it points in the same direction as the tone arm. I think this same little arm with the "v" also acts as the actuator for large arm swings. When the tone arm is in the home position the base of the tone arm should be supported by the little "v"...

On the platter and plate... platter off, some models have the platter resting on a smaller structure around the main bearing, others have an additional plate section that comes out. The spindle part of the plate needs to stay in because it has the drive gear...

Good advice about BeoWorld and the service manuals. They have all of the testing and adjustment procedures with lots of drawings.

[thebes]

Kinball, here's a link with a picture of what needs to be lubricated:

http://forum.beoworld.org/forums/post/8329.aspx

It takes a little patience but eventually you will get the little ball to move up and down. Then soak up the oil you used and add a little more. I ended up having to put a fair amount of pressure on it to get it to move the first time. Patience is the byword here. Take your time with disaassembly and take your time with the oil and putting it back together. Once you get the arm moving properly use a small jewelers screw driver through the hole in the rear behind the arm to level the arm so it sits slightly above a record.

This will almost certainly solve your tracking problems.

Oh, make sure you remove the cartridge before doing any work. These are very hard to find. Thanks to Paul's generosity I have a new one of my arm. If yours is wrecked I'll pass the good feelings along and send you my old one, but if your is ok I'd like to hold onto mine as a spare.

This is a very good turntable. Excellent projection, detail, soundstage, ok on the bottom end and coherent across the musical spectrum. Enjoy!

[Klipsched with Yamahas]

Probably wouldn't hurt me to lube the motor either.......just been too damn lazy lately!

[pauln]

Way to go Thebes! A picture is worth a thousand words... Keep your spare, I have two and have offered if needed...

I have attached the 2402 User and Service Manuals.

I just downloaded the service manual for my 1900 and discovered adjustments for:

Motor Height

Pickup Height

Pickup Arm Balance (already knew this one)

Pickup Parallelism

Pickup Arm Touch-down

I bought a mini spirit level today and checked things I did not even know I could have adjusted for 30 years. Amazing that all is perfect!

2402_user-eng.pdf

[pauln]

Service

2402_service-eng.pdf

[pauln]

L&C

Any positive results yet?

[LoudnClear]

pauln and thebes:

You two are awesome! I just saved off the two manuals and read the last few posts with more tips from you guys.

I have company this weekend so I can't get away to investigate the table yet.

I looked at the picture from thebes and determined that it must be accessed from opening the underside of the table because I've seen nothing like that on the top side. Is that right?

I also looked under the platter at the mechanisms Thursday morning and saw some interesting dynamics related to arm swing, but saw nothing in the line of a lifter actuator gear, or linkage that senses the up/down setting on the center spindle size sensor. If the plastic spindle was up or down it still went to the outer setting for a large album.

I'm hoping that the service manual makes everything come together in my mind.

I'm also planning on getting one of those microscopes at rat shack to assess the stylus.

So I'll probably get to this Sunday night or Monday night and see what I come up with.

Thanks again for the help so far.

Kimball

[thebes]

Yup it's underneath and if I recall correctly you may have to remove the dustcover to free up the back part of the table. Of course that may have been the way I did it given my ignorance at the time.

Do yourself a favor and just do the oil/ball bearing thingy first. It's tied in with the arm-lift and should correct all problems. Don't touch anything else. It probably doesn't need it.

In other words, one step at a time, test thoroughly and then onward.

As far as the stylus goes, you've got spares so try them and let your ears, rather then your eyes, tell the difference. Clean them with a bit of alcohol before you try them out.

[LoudnClear]

OK, here's a picture I got off beoworld of the 2400. It looks just like my 2402. Their pic of the 2402 is not like what I have so I'm not sure if I got a super early 2402 or what, kind of like Cornwall 1.5's in the 85 timeframe.

To clarify, I only have the cartidge that came with it. MMC 20 E. pauln offered access to his spare cache, which is most generous of him, and greatly appreciated. I went and got the 60-100x handheld microscope at radio shack today. cleaned up my stylus with my brother's discwasher stylus cleaner brush and fluid. Then took a look at it. First time I've looked at a stylus, so I'm not sure what good and bad are, but I could see some white lines on it in a few places. I didn't reclean and see if they disappeared or moved. I was getting seasick from the double inversion of the microscope, it will take some getting used to. Since it looked mechanically sound, I went forward and opened the bottom of the table to grease that lift mechanism.

I found it right away thanks to the picture thebes posted. It was seized. I worked it with a bit of light oil and evantually got it moving naturally with the ramp mechanism that drives it in and out.

Satisfied that problem was real and now likely solved, I quickly looked over everything else on the underside of the table and saw nothing out of place/ obviously worn/ wrong, so I put it back together and checked the lift operation with an album on.

the table has a big switch that has 3 options, I'll call them left, top and right.

Left:
STOP
33

Top:
TURN (Turns the platter without activation the arm at all)

Right:
PAUSE
45

I've learned that to start an album from arm rest position, I can press the left button, the arm will lift, swing to the outside edge of a full size album and drop. However the resultant speed of the rotation is about 50% 33 and 50% 45 whenever I start by pressing the Left button. As in, sometimes it plays 33 and sometimes it plays 45.

If I start from the arm rest position and press the right button, expecting to turn at 45 RPM, the arm swings in about half way through the album and I believe it always spins at 45 RPM.

The selection of large or small album appears to be linked to the 33 or 45 button, which is strange, since I'd expect the center spindle to be involved in determining that.

When I press pause, the arm will rise from the album, and the platter will stop. If I press 33/STOP, the platter begins spinning at either 33 or 45 (50% chance of either) and the arm drops and playback begins from the place of pause. If I press 45/PAUSE, the platter begins spinning at 45 (100% of the time, I think) and the arm swings from wherever it was paused, inward to the start point of a small album and begins playing.

So, again there is something not right with the speed and album size determination.

Pauln, I was wondering if the user manual for the 2400 could be passed along, since the 2402 doesn't appear to match the table I have that is marked 2402. Mine matches the layout of a 2400. I've looked briefly at the service manual you posted for the 2402 and see that its kind of a combo 2402/2400 manual. Are there any specific to the 2400 itself? [if I can get this table working well, I will get a silver account at beoworld, but unsure right now if this table can be gotten to work satisfactory, I'd prefer not to drop the entrance fee yet.]

First I'd like to review the user manual for the 2400 to make sure my assumptions about what each control should do are correct. Then I'd like to dig deeper into studying the inner mechanics of the table to see if I can see a sloppy operation in the speed choice.

I played a couple albums tonight. I was pretty pleased with the sound of the B&O off the bat. About 2 weeks ago I got my first turntable at a garage sale, an Onkyo. It has an Ortofon OMP 5E cartridge. I haven't gone through the setup on the table to the nth degree, but I found that there was substantial silibance on the inner half to 1/3 of an album side. I'm finding almost the same amount on the B&O. It is worse on some albums than others. The B&O sounds alot better than the Onkyo in general, but the silibance is common to both and unacceptable. What could this be?

Thanks again for the help so far.

Kimball

[pauln]

Well, sounds like progress is being made.

I will look at the manuals and see if I can get you the correct one.

The controls seem to be operating correctly except for the speed selection when choosing 33... if your table is as I think, the selection of speed is determined by the choice made, not the spindle surround - I think you have the fixed spindle surround that does not test the weight of the record.

There is a motor that spins at high speed and rotates a copper disc,
the center of that disc has a vertical shaft that drives an idle wheel
with a rubber edge. The belt goes around a smaller diameter affair on the idle wheel. The difference in speed is performed internally by a "lifter" that moves the idle wheel up to a different diameter section of the vertical shaft above the copper disc. (The TURN function may have a rotatable wheel behind it that varies the fine speed adjustment. This is done with a small magnet that produces an eddy current against the spinning copper disc without a physical contact.)

So, it seems that either the lifter is not always getting the rubber edge of the idle wheel to the proper position against the shaft, or there is something funny going on when it tries to be in the right place... You might remove the platter, carefully support the arm (and continue to do so as it tries to move), and run the table though a few trials of speed selection - you should see the "lifter" action only when you choose 45 rpm. For safty sake you can do this with the cartridge removed.

I'll check tonight and see if I can find some more specific info...

As to the stylus, under magnification it should look wholesome. Apart from chips and other obvious signs, try to see if the sides have smooth glossy regions that indicate excessive wear. The real test is how it sounds. B&O carts should sound very clear, track perfectly, and have an especially refined high end response without shimmer or sparkle or sibilance - the sound should just go up and up until you can't hear it - no apparent ceiling to the sound.

I'll try to get back later tonight.

[pauln]

L&C,

After looking at some pictures I am wondering exactly which model you have... go to this site and see if you can pin it down.

http://www.beocentral.com/categories/ttr

Look at the 1902 family - this looks most like the picture you said looks most like the table you have...

See service manuals for 2400 and 1102/1902...

2400.pdf

[pauln]

This looks like the manual for your pictured table... let me know

1102-1902.pdf