A good driver replacement for the Klipschorn

[volvotreter]

Currently I'am looking for an improvement of my k-horn. I am using it as subwoofer only (fs-80Hz). So, what driver could improve the low end?

In the following, I included two posts of other people to have a basis for a good discussion.

So, you horn addicted folks: Please name speakers for the k-horn you have tried and share your experience with us (especially the low end)!

____________________________________________

John Warren wrote:

I have experimented with a few drivers in the K-horn. Since the throat baffle covers most of

the cone area it is important that the woofer surrond does not touch. I have built a K-horn

with a removable throat panel (like the old design) and routed an annular groove in it to

accomodate different driver surrounds. Don't have to do this if the mounting gasket is a 1mm

or so thicker than half of Xmax. Based on horn theory and my tinkering, what should works

best are drivers with:

very low Fs (<25Hz)

high Qts (>0.5)

large Xmax (>6mm)

large BL

products >10 T*m

nominal impedence at 4ohms (horn loading brings it closer to 8 inoperation)

Compliance numbers around 0.3mm/N. The "orginal" plans call out a driver with

lowest possible Fs preferably below 25Hz.

I have found that the high end roll-off will suffer if the driver has a low Qts.

The Eminence unit, K33E, is a pretty decent driver for this application and it moves more air

than the old (Xmax limited) EV 15WK. The only down side is that the Eminence unit it real low

end. Also, I have purchased remanufactured units from authorized dealers that have warped

baskets, rust, big air gaps in the motor curcuits where the iron is against the magnet, magnet

cracks, and so on.

$250 for any Eminence driver would be hard for me to swallow. I recently heard a pair of old

LaScalas with (new?) EV DL15W subwoofer 15" drivers installed. I do not know what had to

be done to make them fit but they really cranked! They cost $207 ea. (Parts Express).

Lammers, check the Parts Express web site out (www.partsexpress.com) and compare the

unit in the picture with the one you just bought, look the same?? Look under Electro Voice.

___________________________________________

These are the T/S paramters for the K33E:

Znom = 4 ohms

Re(vc) = 3.5 ohms

L = 1 mH @ 1kHz

R = 1.03 ohm @ 1KHz

Fs = 27Hz

Sd = 0.0890 sq. m (13.5" diameter)

Xmax = 6.67 mm

Vas = 343 liters

Qts = 0.633

Qes = 0.684

Qms = 8.5

BL = 9.8 T*m

Mms = 106 grams

Cms = 305 microns/Newton

Pmax = 150 Watts

A lower Fs and larger BL product will improve the low end performance and transients

respectively of both the LaScala and the K-horn. Last time I checked the Eminence website, I

did not see a driver with suitable T/S parameters for the Khorn.

John

____________________________________________

[Q-Man]

It's not the K33E, it's the Klipschorn cabinet. The horn cabinet is tuned to 35Hz.

The K33E is a 27Hz woofer. The LaScala uses it and only goes down to 45Hz.

I just built a pair of Jenson Imperial back loaded horn cabinets that are tuned from 20Hz to 600Hz. I'm using K33E's in them and I must be getting the 27Hz out of them in this cabinet. A-B-ing them with my Klipschorns really shows off the lower end in them. The K33E is a good woofer, it can move a lot of air.

I hate to say it ,but I might like this Imperial more then the Klipschorn. It's a design from the fifties.My son likes the K-horn better. Were still doing listening test.

Q.

[Klewless]

Q-Man,

Your Jensen horn. Is that the one shaped like the corner or the box shaped one?

I have often considered the corner shaped one for use as a sub only, pairs of course. If one is going to that much trouble to get real bass, it might as well be stereo!!!!

Awfully glad to hear someone trying those horns out. Have never gotten the opportunity to see or hear them.

But using a pair for bass in the corner brings up the question on just what to use for the mains? In my case, LaScalas won't fit the room. Maybe the RF3????

Thanks

------------------

John P

St Paul, MN

[Q-Man]

I built the ones, as you say, shaped like a corner. They are shaped quite a bit like the K-horn, only deeper & taller. I may try a good 20Hz woofer in them someday to see if they can go lower then they do now. As it stands I think they sound better in the 27Hz. to 150Hz & 300Hz to 500Hz range then the K-Horn. The K-Horn may sound cleaner inbetween these areas. I built them to use as rear speakers along with a pair of LaScalas to give me a little more low end.

The K-Horns still serve as the mains with LaScalas on top of them for the front effect channels.

The Jensons could be your main speakers & sub. Mine are loaded with the K33E, K55M, K77 ,& AL3 networks. These were all left over parts from updating my other speakers.

You would just need to find that good 20Hz woofer.

Q.

[WMcD]

Hmmm, why does anyone assume there is an improvement to be accomplished. The K-Horn works very well.

It is a bit annoying that there is some assumumtion that the the design is not optimised.

Gil

[John Warren]

Gil,

A version made from 3/4" thick 14-ply will improve upon the factory version.

John

[Tom Brennan]

John---I think Gil meant the design of the horn not it's construction. People looking for some "magic" driver to make their Khorn go lower are in or some disappointment.

[Q-Man]

Gil,

I like my Klipschorns & respect all that Paul put into the design. They have given me years of pleasure, I couldn't live without them. I was reading an artical about Vintage Horn speakers and Bruce Edgar and a couple other horn designers, who's names escape me right now , had this to say. " The Jensen Imperial is the one folded horn that got it right." That statement aroused my interest, since they compared it to the Klipschorn and some other brands. Being a cabinet builder & Klipschorn nut, I just had to build a pair to see if they were right.

Now I was just reading about the old Electro Voice Patrician. This speaker is said to basically be a Klipschorn bass bin scaled up by 16 and 2/3% and uses an 18" woofer. The bass is said to be solid & powerful down to 25Hz. So guess what my next project is going to be. This one shouldn't annoy you, since it's just a larger Klipschorn.

John,

I will be using 3/4" ply. for its construction as I did with the Jensen. It should be fun trying to adjust the measurements in Pauls design to work with 3/4" material & then increase its size by 16&2/3 % .

Q.

[WMcD]

Sorry guys, I might have been stepping close to the impolite line. I get too wrapped up in it all.

I'll send anyone wanting it the article on construction of the Patrician. Putting this together with the Speakerlab plans, a builder would have a good start.

The design of the Patrician midrange seems to require a driver which is rear loaded. It looks like Parts Express is selling such a device now. It could be done!

Gil

[WMcD]

If you want a suggestion on an alternate driver for a K-Horn and SK, I'm using a Pyramid 1570 from Parts Express.

It works for me. I can not claim it is "better" than a K-33 or K-33-E.

However, if you're a tinkerer, you might give it a try.

Regards,

Gil

[Q-Man]

Gil,

No apology necessary , we all have Klipsch in our blood.

I would like a copy of that article. If its alright with you, I'll email you my address. Also let me know how much and I'll send you a check.

Thanks, Q.

[John Warren]

Gil,
Are

Edited June 3, 2014 by John Warren

[WMcD]

So, John W., does this mean you have a Khorn made from 3/4 inch ply?

You make me feel good. I had built the SK using 3/4 inch which took some figuring and extra work. Later I noticed that the Hope product used quite a bit of 1/2 inch, and thought my additional efforts were over kill.

Perhaps not!

I also have backs on them. This might improve things over a poor corner.

Incidentally, I think Klipsch fanatics have no gripe with Patricians and Imperials. They're close cousins.

Gil

[djk]

quote:

---

Originally posted by William F. Gil McDermott:

If you want a suggestion on an alternate driver for a K-Horn and SK, I'm using a Pyramid 1570 from Parts Express.

It works for me. I can not claim it is "better" than a K-33 or K-33-E.

However, if you're a tinkerer, you might give it a try.

Regards,

Gil

---

Pyramid changed the design of the 1570 about two years ago.The original was a very good replacement for the K33E.What they are shipping now is not.If the front gasket is two colored speckled cork it is the newer type.

[WMcD]

Hmm, very interesting on the updated 1570.

I bought mine several months ago. My recall is red flecks.

You've invited the question: What did they change . . . and if you know, why?

Gil

[Steve Phillips]

Gil,What did you mean"So,John W.does this mean you have a Khorn made from 3/4 inch ply?"

Mine are.

[WMcD]

From some cut aways I've seen, and some comments on the bbs, I get the impression that parts of the bass unit from Hope are made out of 1/2 inch ply. Maybe I'm wrong.

Gil

[John Warren]

[John Warren]

Steve P,

All the factory units I've seen have been 1/2" birch ply for all panels except the front face and chamber panels which is 3/4".

John

[WMcD]

Okay, so the inference was correct.

I use six machine screws into T-nuts to hold on the hatch. It is stiffened because I have a piece of ply there to attach a side wall.

I was looking through some old Audio magazines while making copies of the article on the Patrician for buddies on the board.

The ads show various kits for the EV line of corner horns. They are described as K-Horns. My impression is that EV cut the boards in all cases. I'd think that PWK got his royalty without having to cut and ship wood.

Gil