Folded Horn Tubby - Woody Sound ?

[ka7niq]

She,s not that blind....She knew she married a great guy.

Maron, after 37 years, she might argue that point.

Lynn is much, much older than me. I was a child when she................well, today law forbids such things. (in most states)

37 years ago I focused on a pair. Today, the focal point is her pair of golden ears. I swear, I can change a cap and she asks "what's different"? Critical Bi%&h!

Big smile.

tc

Edit: Man, if she ever reads some of this stuff.......

They DO hear better then us I think.

My girlfriend, upon hearing my old Klipschorns asked "Why Does the TV News Guy Sound Like He Has A Chest Cold" ?

I have several pairs of speakers, and my girlfriend does not live with me.

Of all my speakers, she likes the B&W Matrix 801's the best, calling them 'The Ugly Speakers From England"

Her name is Eileen O' Riordan, full blooded Irish, she dislikes most things British.

At first, she liked the idea of the Corner Horns because I sold her on the fact they were "Out Of The Way".

[ka7niq]

This is making me laugh so hard! My wife had some crap Sound Design receiver... in her dorm room. I soon had a pair of JBL 4311s. What a journey it was with her. I know she would have liked the LS sitting in the living room now. Can't believe how much I miss her sometimes.

Bruce

I feel your pain Bruce.

I lost my Grandma, she had Altzhimers.

She was "gone" for years, and didn't even know me her last years of life, though I was her favorite Grandchild.

Her picture sits proudly on the mantle, and I swear I can still hear her saying "Stop making all that racket".

[ZAKO]

RACKET????? "About your speakers" !!!!!! Did you ever think about turning your K,s around faceing the corner.... I,m bad.......

[ka7niq]

RACKET????? "About your speakers" !!!!!! Did you ever think about turning your K,s around faceing the corner.... I,m bad.......

Grandma was all Italian Maron, and a very devout Catholic who attended Mass more then once a week.

She was a volunteer down at the Church, and good friends with several Catholic Nuns.

Nuns are into QUIET, except when they are teaching school, or beating your azz.

ANY loud noises drove Grandma nuts.

As far as turning the Corner Horns around, good idea.

Maybe that will get rid of the mid bass hump ?

Hey Maron, got an idea I wanted to ask you about ?

Why not place some Fiberglass in between the horn and Tailboard.

Is that called the mouth of the horn ?

Maybe the fiberglass in the right amount can act as a filter, get rid of that woody sound ?

Will That work ?

[sunnysal]

There is no doubt in my mind the k-horns have "woody bass" I remember some board-mates trying to dampen and/or reinforce the large wood panels to see if it reduced the woodiness of size. early on I bought some constrained layer dampening materials and also some threaded bars to try to lessen the big panel's vibrations or absorb them. I could not really hear any difference in the bass sound and eventually removed it all. I do think you are right about the bass sound though, I still love my k-horns and they have cured me of looking for other speakers (well maybe I still covet a jub!). warm regards, tony

[Guest " "]

"What is it, where is it coming from, and IS it possible to get rid of it w/o EQ ?"

 

What type networks do you have?

try an AK-3 , universal upgrade, AK-4, or even an extreme slope network for Khorns, AL-3, AL-4, etc for LaScala's.

I have all of these networks and my comments are based on my experience listening.

 

 

[ka7niq]

There is no doubt in my mind the k-horns have "woody bass" I remember some board-mates trying to dampen and/or reinforce the large wood panels to see if it reduced the woodiness of size. early on I bought some constrained layer dampening materials and also some threaded bars to try to lessen the big panel's vibrations or absorb them. I could not really hear any difference in the bass sound and eventually removed it all. I do think you are right about the bass sound though, I still love my k-horns and they have cured me of looking for other speakers (well maybe I still covet a jub!). warm regards, tony

Hey, we are talking absolutes here, and no speaker is perfect.

The Klipschorn has many strengths, but the woody sound is it's achilles heel.

Maybe it is time for Klipsch to recognize the problem, and do something about it ?

From what I hear, it is caused by having the bass horn play clear up to 400K

Why not think aout using a different midrange horn/driver to play lower ?

[ka7niq]

"What is it, where is it coming from, and IS it possible to get rid of it w/o EQ ?"

What type networks do you have?

try an AK-3 , universal upgrade, AK-4, or even an extreme slope network for Khorns, AL-3, AL-4, etc for LaScala's.

I have all of these networks and my comments are based on my experience listening.

MAYBE an extreme slope ?

But I did try my Rane 24 db electronic on some Klipschorns, no luck, unless I dialed the crossover down real low.

Then I got a big hole in the response.

I just do not see any way to allow a folded horn to play all the way up to 400hz w/o serious coloration.

I was reading Bruce Edgars thought on this, something about a Tuba ?

[Guest " "]

"I just do not see any way to allow a folded horn to play all the way up to 400hz w/o serious coloration."

 

See if someone close to you has a setup with ALK extreme slope xovers.  They are 120db per octave roll off.  120db, not a typo.

I have a set, and they do not sound tubby.

 

 details on his website.  questions sent are quickly responded to.

 

 

[ka7niq]

That is quite a slope!

I owned JSE Infinite Slope speakers back in the 80's that used this approach.

I was hoping someone would chime in and identify WHAT this coloration is, what frequency is it occurring at, and WHY is it occurring.

Here is what Bruce Edgar says about some horns.

Bass horns have their own resonance problems. Typically, a well-designed bass horn that can go down to 35 Hz will have a total volume of 20 cu.ft. or more. A company's marketing department will say that it can't sell a big speaker like it. Moreover, the marketers say, "Keep the 35 Hz flare but make it smaller." So the horn length is truncated to make it smaller. The net result is long folded slowly expanding tube that sounds more like a resonant tuba than a wide band bass horn. The response plot looks as a series of harmonically related resonant peaks

And, from another interview -

It turns out that lead guitar speakers, such as the EVM 15L, have mass rolloff frequencies close to 400 Hertz. For a bass horn to match up with a midrange horn, it has to go up that high. Many commercial bass horns haven't gone up that high. People tried to use speakers that were designed for bass reflex and then put in a lower midrange horn. The old University Classic horn used a 15-inch, which rolled off around 200 Hertz, and a Cobraflex 250-Hertz lower midrange horn that had many colorations. Electrovoice also used a reflex PA horn to bridge the difference. Klipsch tried a variety of drivers, but the Klipschorn always had a problem of extending the upper bass horn response. At one point they went to a constricted throat, which they still use, and that helped a little bit. But I investigated the constricted throat in a Speaker Builder article and found that all it really did was change the standing wave pattern. It didn't really improve the upper bass response

Let's talk about straight horns versus folded horns. I have built both. In the beginning, I thought that the secret of designing a good horn was to come up with the optimum folding configuration, but after a number of experiments with folded horns and straight horns, straight horns sounded the best, especially for the upper frequencies. The higher frequencies, above a couple of hundred Hertz, don't like folds. They change phase, have reflections, and have an irregular response structure due to reflections. There's a myriad of problems, but if you have a straight horn, the sound is cleaner. You have an unobstructed wave front that is not bent out of shape coming out of the horn. The negative side of straight bass horns is that the dust cover of the speaker can see the outside world. In a long folded horn, the high frequency sounds coming off the dust cover are lost in the folds. There are high-Q resonances due to the breakup in the dust cover. The dust cover on a 15-inch Electrovoice is four inches in diameter. The high frequencies that radiate off the dust cover are much above the mass rolloff, but they can still be pretty significant. Gluing a big thick felt pad to the dust cover will damp out a good deal of the peaks. The same phenomenon happens when you have a midrange cone driver in a midrange horn. The round button dust cover produces little spikes running well above 5 kHz.

[ka7niq]

If you read the previous post, and the information I posted about what Dr Edgar said, you might have the same thoughts I am having.

Since Edgar makes straight horns, the dustcap is exposed to the world.

He has measured resonances coming off the dustcap of many drivers.

His solution is to glue a big piece of felt over the dustcap to absorb these resonances.

So, in a folded horn, WHY not do the same thing ?

he says these resonances "get lost" in the folds of a bass horn.

Maybe so, but MY ears "find em" again as they leave the horn.