Integra, Onkyo, or Denon?

[tross]

I finally got to see an Integra 8.8 (there is only 1 dealer in my area). It sounded awesome, the 1080P upscaling worked on a digital signal (unlike some of the others I've seen), adjustments (like volume) were overlayed on the screen so you can see changes without losing pic. It's packed with features and looks like an Awesome deal at 2,500.

Anyone have experience with this receiver?

http://www.audioholics.com/ces/ces2004/CES_2004_day2b.html

[tross]

BTW, I'm trying out the Sony STR-5300ES because it has 6 HDMI inputs. I have a hiss on the HDMI inputs from my PS3. I've tried multiple cables (different paths and cable types) with no luck. I actually had the hiss on my cable box as well, but changed a setting (HDMI priority from PCM to auto) and it went away. No luck getting rid of the hiss with the PS3. I don't think its the PS3 since I had the same problem with the cable box - I won't know until I change the receiver. Also, I don't like the way it displays Auto Format Decode instead of what the actually audio format is (DD, DTS, etc). Other than the hiss on HDMI, the sound is decent, the menu was fun to use, the auto calibration was a snap and fairly accurate. Despite the good things, the hiss is not acceptable and this unit is going back to the store.

[jzoz01]

Internally this reciever is the same as the DTC-9.8 preamp. My advice would be to pick up the preamp ($1699) and add an out board amp ($1000 for sunfire cinema grand 200x5 on audiogon, or perhaps outlaw??) and spend about the same and come out with seperates.

[tross]

Onkyo 905 Review.

OK so after testing the Sony 5300ES for a brief (very brief)

time, I returned it to the store and tried to get my hands on an Integra 8.8

(or 9.8 with a Rotel 1095 amp). I

didnt have any luck with the Integra since we only have 1 dealer in town and

they are in high demand. The

dealer had some units coming in, but I didnt want to mess around swapping

dollars with a small AV shop.

So instead I picked up an Onkyo 905 from Frys.

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The thought being that if I like the

Onkyo, then the Integra 8.8 will be even better – right???

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OK so here is my review of the

Onkyo.

Ive had the Onkyo for a few days now.

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The first impression of SQ out of the

box was not good. I wasnt happy

with the SQ in general. After

running Audessy and messing with various speaker settings (small vs large,

different crossovers, double bass on/off, etc), I was happy with the SQ from

all but the bass and center channel.

I had to increase the bass drastically from Audessys settings.

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After some tuning, playing lossless from my PS3 with THX

selected on the 905 (using 300 as my main test movie), the SQ was very

good. However, when I selected

direct or pure audio, the center channel was very hollow.

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I switched movies and used THX setting

once again – this time the center sounded a tad too bright so I switched

to pure direct and it sounded great.

I guess I dont mind switching from Direct to Pure Audio to THX

depending on the source, but I never had to do this with my old Sony ES –

Auto Format Decode on the Sony made everything sound good.

Ive read several complaints about lip sync issues on the

905. I have 2 HT setups in my

house. So I came up with a

slightly different test. I played

the same cable channel using the same exact cable box at the same time on the two

systems. While I did not notice

any lip sync issues with the 905, there was a delay in the audio that was only

noticeable when I played the same source in 2 different places.

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Not a big deal since the video and

audio are going through the 905 (via HDMI), but my fear is that this could

become an issue in the future – assuming Im not sending the video

through the amp in the future. If

the video is ahead of the sound, you cant fix this problem.

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So this is a concern for me.

This last problem ruled the 905 out for me.

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When watching HD TV via Time Warner,

different audio formats are sent to the amp depending on the source – so

when transitioning to/from commercials it is common to go from DD to stereo.

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During some of these transitions, the

905 actually resynced the video in addition to the audio format.

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This caused a few seconds of a blue

screen on my TV. It really

wouldnt have been that bad if it was just a few times watching TV – but

it wasnt!!! When watching 300 on

blu ray, if you skip chapters chances are very good that you will lose your

video signal and blue screen your tv for a few second.

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Also, when loading the movie from my

PS3, I would get 3 different transitions before the movie would start with blue

screens. This was VERY VERY

irritating. So much so that I

think I may go back to the Sony store and get another 5300ES.

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Ill need to make sure the 5300ES has

the firmware update that fixes the last problem I had with static on the HDMI

ports. If the 5300ES fixes this

problem, Id actually prefer the Sony over the 905! Before I go the Sony route again, Im going to test a Denon

4308ci.

If the 905 is anywhere representative of the Integra 8.8 or

9.8, then they are all out in my book.

If someone has tested the Integra 8.8 or 9.8 video switching, please let

me know if this is correct

On to testing Denon.

905 Summary

Good:

-Big AMP with

lots of power.

-Easy to use

menu.

-Sound Quality

with tweaking.

-Really liked

the 1080i upconvert to 1080P - quality was very good aside from the resync issues

Bad:

-Have to know

which mode is appropriate to get the best SQ (not a big issue)

-Delay in sound

processing (could be a big issue)

-Video loses

sync when skipping chapters on Blu Ray and watching cable (big issue)

-OSD overlay

works for volume and changing DSP, but not for config (only the menu with no

source video in the background)

-No way in

upgrade firmware via the menu (at least it wasnt obvious to me)

[tross]

Denon 4308CI Review

Ive had the Denon for a few days now. I have to say that

Im very surprised. The sound

quality is very good, the video upscaling is very sharp, the problems I had

with the Onkyo do not exist in the Denon.

The AMP is surprisingly powerful – SQ is great at high and low

levels. I usually listen to my

movies at -15 db but with the Denon, its plenty loud at -22 db.

Pros:

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GUI is very nice.

It overlays the picture on the screen so you can watch TV while you tune

the receiver (Onkyo did not do this).

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Video upscaling is high quality

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Video never loses sync (unlike the Onkyo)

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Produces a very natural sound without changing DSP

modes

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Absolutely no delay processing sound/video (unlike the

Onkyo)

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I updated

the firmware by myself (very nice feature for future proofing)

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Denon has an add feature option in the GUI.

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The receiver will actually download

features when made available.

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Plenty of power

Cons:

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GUI is nice, but configuring the receiver was not that

straight forward. The Onkyo was

actually a bit easier to configure.

Finding items in the Denon menu took a little getting used to.

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The Onkyo menu is more

traditional. I have a feeling that

after some time, Ill prefer the Denon navigation but for now its foreign.

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When the

volume and mute is displayed on the TV the text has a black box

background. The Onkyo simply

overlayed the white letters over the picture. The black box background is not very elegant.

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While I didnt like changing from THX to direct on the

Onkyo, I kinda missed that ability on the Denon. No THX Ultra 2 cert on the Denon as well.

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[tross]

After using the 4308ci

for a good number of days, I thought I'd change back to the Onkyo 905 - just

for fun. This last swap really

cleared it up for me - Denon runs circles around Onkyo.

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The Denon's sound quality is much more

"pure" than the Onkyo - this was really obvious on the center

channel. The delay with the Onkyo

is real. When playing the same source in two locations (using the Onkyo), there

was a noticeable delay with the sound from the Onkyo. There was no delay with the Denon. This actually makes a difference when your watching

something like the Superbowl and you have it running in two places - which we

did. Transitioning between

locations in the house was smooth with the Denon - it was irritating with the

Onkyo. The 4308ci is so good, that

I'm now thinking about upgrading to the 5308ci.

After this last

exercise, I went back to the local Integra dealer (Austin only has one).

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Again, I told them what I am doing and

asked to pay for their demo Integra 8.8 (they have it on the floor being used

for demos). You would not believe

the excuses they gave me as to why they couldn't let me test the 8.8.

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They actually passed on my business

without even trying. They refused

to let me take one of their boxes.

Their reaction was so out of character (especially for a family owned

business that I'm sure could use the money), it could only mean that they KNOW

the product has the same issues as the 905.

On to the 5308ci, which

will most likely be my permanent solution.

[tross]

WOW!!! I've spent a few hours now with my 5308. It really is better than the 4308ci. I was second guessing my decision to upgrade cause I was very happy with the 4308. Now I know that I made the right decision. The 5308 rocks!! Audessey did a great job balancing everything. On the 4308 (and other receivers that I've tested) the bass would be set too low - Not on the 5308. No problems other than it still recognizing my center as large (I'm using the Klipsch RF-83 system w/ an RC-64 center).

The video upscaling is awesome. The On Screen Display works at all resolutions. So far no noticeable problems - I'm going to be watching closely over the next few days.

I've run Audessey 2 times. The first time I only used a single listening position and the SQ was great. The second time I used 8 listening positions and again the sound was awesome. The front speaker were balanced better when using 8 listening positions. After both times, I had to change my center to small and set the cross over to 80 (the 5308 picked 60 for my surrounds, which is what I usually set them too). I didn't have any problems with the setting changing back (like hifiaudio2 described - all I did was hit return after changing the settings). I'm not using an UltraII sub so I didn't enable the THX sub feature. I am however using 2 separate subs (5.2 setup). I'm using the 2SP mix setting. I love the fact that the 5308 can manage 3 separate subs independently.

So far I've been listening to my BD movies in LPCM in THX mode. My Pioneer won't allow me to use THX on LPCM, so I was very happy to see that the 5308 will allow this - and it sounds awesome (have I said that already)? Looks like the 5308 has Dynamic EQ enabled by default - which is a good thing (you don't need a pro installer to use this feature).

There are a number of people complaining about the various firmware anomalies on Denons. I didn't have any issues with the firmware upgrade on the 5308 - which is the very first thing I did after connecting power (upgraded via the Ethernet port - not wifi). It took ~40 minutes to complete. I upgraded the firmware 2 times on my old 4308 and both times I had to restart the unit manually after the upgrades. The 5308, restarted itself automatically.

Once again - info in the manual is lacking. Same old strange Denon remotes - all though the main remote has grown on me.

So far, I'm very happy with the 5308. I haven't heard the 83s sound this good on anything else.

[Youthman]

Glad to hear you are enjoying your 83's. Just curious...with a price tag of 5k for the 5308, why not go separates at that point?

[tross]

I was considering the Integra 9.8 with a Rotel 1095 - which would have been right at the same price. However, after testing the Onkyo 905 I was very disappointed with Onkyo/Integra. The Integra dealer only confirmed my concerns so I ruled them out. Even though I don't have separates, the 5308 has many things that you just can't get right now unless you go with the Integra 9.8 or the 7k pre amp from Denon. My dealer is prepared to loan me a 1095 to test with the 5308, but honestly it isn't necessary. The power and SQ of the 5308 is more than adequate. For 5k - I have 6 HDMI inputs, better video quality, better audessey, near the power of a sep amp, THX Ultra 2, DD TrueHD, DTS HD MA - all of this and I don't have the bugs that I found in the competing products that have similar features.

[Youthman]

Thx for the reply. I was just curious. You did your homework, found what you liked and that's all that matters. I am jealous either way you would have gone. [] I'm slowly working on my system....

[oldbuckster]

www.outlawaudio.com

[tross]

I've read good things about outlaw, but I really can't get past the appearance and I don't know a single person that actually owns one. The only good things I hear about them are on-line. I'm very familiar with Denon, Onkyo, Pioneer, Yamaha, Rotel, Integra, and a few others. Given the time I've already spent evaluating AVRs, I'm very happy sticking with Denon. Outlaw didn't hit my radar for a variety of reasons (money was not one of them).

[Youthman]

I've read good things about outlaw, but I really can't get past the appearance

Have to agree with you there. Funny thing is I feel the same way about Denon receivers. [] I lov the look of the Yamaha RX-V2700, RX-V3800 etc. Very sleek and elegant IMO.

Regardless, you have a kickin system and I'm sure you are enjoying every minute of it. []

[oldbuckster]

Never hear any complaints about OUTLAW, I do about Oinkyo, and Denon ............. I like my Yamaha, but for the money you're talking about, seperates is the only way to fly, but it's not my money ....................

[colterphoto1]

I just found out that my Yamaha RXV2600 will NOT pass On Screen Display from the Yamaha on HDMI pass through.

What does this mean? I don't get volume incator on screen. aarrrggghhhh [8o|]

[Arky]

I just found out that my Yamaha RXV2600 will NOT pass On Screen Display from the Yamaha on HDMI pass through.

What does this mean? I don't get volume incator on screen. aarrrggghhhh

My Outlaw doesn't either so I connected svideo cable for tweaking purposes. Have to switch inputs to see it though.

[tross]

Just to add a little more color on the AVRs I tested. The OSD on the Denon works with all different resolutions (over HDMI) even if you are not upscaling the video. It just works. The Onkyo 905 that I used worked most of the time, but did not work with Blu-Ray movies - I assumed that it wouldn't work unless it could upscale the video. The Onkyo's OSD was also very limited - you couldn't overlay the AVR config, only the basic volume and interface type info. When switching to the config on the Onkyo the picture was not shown in the background (like it is on the Denon) and the sound is cut.

[phastlane]

Tross, Thank you for posting your experiences.

I am getting ready to embark on the same quest for an AVR or Pre/pro, and you just saved me days and weeks of work!

[tross]

Thanks phastlane. Here are a few more data points after using the 5308 all

weekend.

1- Bi-Amping rocks. I did not bi-amp the 4308 that I tested, but now I

wish I had to hear the difference on that unit. It's not difficult to setup, but you need to set it up

before running audessey (not to state the obvious). The 5308 with bi-amping is

unbelievable. The bass is

plentiful, the RF-83s are in NO way too bright (which can be the case with

class=GramE>less powered

AVRs). The mid's are there in

abundance - much more than with any other combo I tried.

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2- I was hoping to use the remote that came

with the Denon as the primary remote.

However, I gave up on this idea over the weekend and used my Harmony 880

instead. Logitech does NOT have

the 5308 in their database, so I used the 4308 for configuring the remote.

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I changed the default delay time to 0

ms as the Logitech is way too slow by default. I had a few other Harmony related issues that sucked, but

that has nothing to do with the Denon so I won't bother describing those.

3- After running

Audessey, I changed the subwoofer from 2SP mix to 2SP L/R and the levels set by

Audessey were gone. I then changed

back to my original settings only to find that the levels do not come back.

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This isn't a big deal.

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Once you know which setting you want,

stick with it.

4- The 5308 runs hot (hotter than any others

I tested)- especially in the top back left hand corner.

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So leave room for ventilation.

5-

If I didn't decide to spend the money on the 5308, I

would have stuck with the 4308. I

would have bi-amped the 4308 and increased the subwoofer levels and surround

speakers from the Audessey settings.

[jacksonbart]

Top Notch!