arco Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 Hi Everybody, Sometime ago, I posted a topic asking if someone had any experience on Klipsch speakers and TS amps... Well, nobody could help on that matter. So (driven by an irresistible instinct!) I decided to take the plunge and be the first...guinea pig, building their USD 1099 (+USD 60 for the low-noise mod), 2x15W T16 OTL kit. I still can't believe my ears, because this might be the all time best-overall amp my Klipschorns have ever met! And this is what one should call a "documented" opinion, as I have compared on the spot the T16 with my other amps, which range from 2A3/300B SE to tube push-pull and transistor Class A. Very good amps as they all are, the T16 proved the only one able to combine this "inner lighting" and clarity SE triodes give to reproduced music, with the guts and utter control which are the realm of good transistor amps...And all this without sounding a bit clinical, mechanical or whatever you may call it. In other words, its a beautiful music making machine. And it sounds good right out of the bench, although it really comes into its own after about 50-60 hours of break-in. And I should not forget to tell you that, yes, it is silent...as a tomb! Last but not least, the kit is very well thought out and rather easy to build, even for the less experienced amateur. You can always buy it factory-built, if you so desire. That'it...If you are in the market for a good amp dont forget to check out this one by visiting www.transcendentsound.com Aristidis www.aca.gr/pop_coumpas.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 Yes, the little T16 OTL kit is an intriquing device. I have to say that I have thought most OTL amps to almost overdo detail, sounding rather antiseptic and etched compared to a well-designed SET. These amps are supposed to be amazingly fast... I just wonder how they would stack up in long term listening. How is the palpable harmonic richness conveyed via your T16 OTL? Also, what is the cost for tube replacement? Lord, that is a boat load of 6C19PI (16)!!! What are you running with the 12AX7, AT7, and AU7? kh Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-16-2002 at 10:44 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arco Posted January 16, 2002 Author Share Posted January 16, 2002 Mobile, I was thinking exactly like you but, for some time now, something also "told me" I absolutely had to try that thing...Specific system synergies aside, the T16 hit the sweet spot with me, because it plays music with refinement and aplomb at the same time. And this, never trespassing the borders between analysis and musicality, if you see what I mean. Just imagine a 2A3 amp with balls! According to the manufacturer, the output tubes should last for thousands of hours (we will see!). Anyhow, the replacement cost is not that prohibitive, taking into account that a 6C19P costs about USD 9. To drive the lot, finally, I am using a Mullard CV4004 (12AX7 eq.) followed by a Philips ECG 12AT7 and a Sylvania 6189 (12AU7 eq.)x2. The Philips tubes were provided by TS, but not the rest of them. Those included were chinese 12AU7's and EI 12AX7's. Have a nice day, Aristidis www.aca.gr/pop_coumpas.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 I am curious arco, can you give more details on the tube amps...I want to know what we are comparing to these new amps...thanks and congrats sound like you've found "the amp" for your k-horns...I am still looking regards, tony ------------------ *1993 K-Horns w/ ALK x-overs*Marantz 7T preamp*Dynaco MkIV monoblocks (modded to triode)*Sony CDP-CX350 and CX-230 CD changers*MSB link DACIII (96k upsampling)*MSB silver digital director (for switching and jitter reduction)*Technics M-85 professional Cassette Deck*SAE MK VIII tuner*Luxman PD-272 turntable, Grado Red cartridge*Cardas Crosslink speaker cable*Monster M550i for all interconnects*Monster HTS3500 Reference Powercenter Conditioner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arco Posted January 16, 2002 Author Share Posted January 16, 2002 Hi Tony, Here's the amps FYI: 1) SUN AUDIO SV2A3 with KR output tubes, Sylvania brown base 6SN7's and Tungsol 5U4GB rectifier. 2) SUN AUDIO 300BTE monoblocs with JJ 300B's, Mazda 6V6's, RCA black base 6SN7's and RCA 5U4G rectifiers. 3) Home made 2A3/300B monoblocks with VAIC VV30B output tubes, Western Electric 2C51 drivers and Mullard GZ33 rectifiers. 4) Yves Cochet ALS2 6L6 PP amp with GE output tubes, Tesla ECC82 drivers and Brimar ECC81 phase splitters 5) Plinius SA-100 MKII class A transistor amp. All the above driven by a Hovland HP-100 preamp. Cables are Nordost SPM and Clearaudio Clearline (speaker cable) Aristidis www.aca.gr/pop_coumpas.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 The KR is the most unmusical 2A3 I have ever heard. Quiet as a tomb...but as soulless as a loaf of Sunbeam bread. kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-16-2002 at 02:58 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnR Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 6C19pi can be obtained from Europe for $3 each. You can't post this information on Rozenblit's forum because he deletes it. JohnR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 I have a chance to buy this amplifier premade for $1100 and I am actually considering it for a second system and a total departure from my current setup. It would obviously be a completely different sonic picture than my 2A3 Moondogs with Audio Note Copper PIO and Tantalum resistors. Frankly, I am not sure if I will even like it but I AM curious...perhaps even curious enough to go ahead with it. This means selling some of my closet gear so I might part with one of my EICO HF-81 as well as some other odds and ends. We'll see. John, is that you??? What the hell are you doing in here? You SCARED ME! You might have to give me the tube connection. kh ------------------ Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnR Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 Huh? What the... Where am I? How did I get here? Klipsch forum!? What the hicc is a Klipsch? Help, get me outta here! :-) Hey Kelly, thassa good deal. I was going to offer to build you one if you wanted. Don't know what it sounds like myself. I'm going a bit high-eff myself, up to my ears in speakers, only problem is those rats forgot to put them in boxes, now what am I going to do? JohnR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 Isn't that Transcendant guy well known for his prickiness? I have been interested in their preamp though. Maybe I need to look closer as that is clearly what is wrong with my current setup.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 John... ole John. DAmn, could there be a nicer loon out there? No! I have some great stories about ole john... Like the time he climbed that water tower with the French model clad in burlap on a dare? Lord... Those were the days! I need to get up with you the next time I am on the West coast; I'll bring my 72 CB-350 that looks like a Triumph with a lobotomy... and watch you rocket by on your flaming red speed ship! Hey, Randy.... dont be too hard on that little Creek passive. It is not bad at all. IT just is lacking a slight bit of midrange warmth that is welcome sometimes. I actually dont think that is your whole problem. It's that wacky coffee table and the TV!!!!! heh... kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnR Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 Heh heh. Say, what was the name of that French model again? And her phone number... I need to, um, refresh my memory... This looks like a fun place to hang out! Too bad I don't own any Klipsch :-( (arco, sorry to hijack your thread.. thanks for the informative posts!) JohnR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arco Posted January 17, 2002 Author Share Posted January 17, 2002 quote: Originally posted by mobile homeless: The KR is the most unmusical 2A3 I have ever heard. Quiet as a tomb...but as soulless as a loaf of Sunbeam bread. kh Mobile, Quiet as a tomb it is...but soulless? Well - using the KR as a direct 2A3 replacement - I had exactly the same opinion as you. Until I discovered in the Bottlehead site (they were then selling those tubes...) that - for cathode bias amps - the value of the cathode resistor should be changed (from 2 to 3k, if memory serves me well...) for this tube to perform properly. So I did change the value and that made all the difference. In my other amps where the bias is set manually, this particular problem is nonexistent. All one has to do is to set the bias in such a way, as to find the "sweet spot" of the tube. No problems, thereafter... If you performed this mod and you still found the tube to be soulless, then I might have not stated boldly enough that the synergy factor in our hobby, is more crucial that one might think. I do not have extensive experience with many different types of 2A3's but, extrapolating from the implementation of other tube types, I do know that some tubes work wonders in some circuits and almost crap in others... But, then, this is why hi-end audio is so interesting! Aristidis www.aca.gr/pop_coumpas.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arco Posted January 17, 2002 Author Share Posted January 17, 2002 quote: Originally posted by JohnR: 6C19pi can be obtained from Europe for $3 each. You can't post this information on Rozenblit's forum because he deletes it. JohnR JohnR, Why don't you share that info here? From my own (nonexhaustive) research, it appears that the European retail price is a little less than USD 9/piece. I have also discovered some russian sites with better prices, but then one must buy at least 100 tubes at a time (would consider, if I had to retube a SILVAWELD 150!)...But USD 3/piece retail, appears to me as an "out of this world" price, unless if we are talking factory seconds, here. And I wouldn't like to install this kind of tubes in an OTL (or any other...) amp! Aristidis www.aca.gr/pop_coumpas.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 17, 2002 Share Posted January 17, 2002 Aristidis, if you take a look at the amp I have, you will notice it is the Welborne Labs Moondog. Up until just a few months ago, Ron Welborne was the main US distributor of KR tubes. In fact, Ron recommended the mod to the R13 resistor (removal) to up the VOLTAGE to the KR2A3 thus making taking the Moondog from a 3.2-3.5w amplifier to a 4.5w or so amplifier. Of course, once this mod is performed, you are not advised to run your stock 2A3 as it will burn them out much faster. The mod was given to increase the wattage, not as much to find the KR operating points. I lived with the KR tubes for about four weeks and was so unimpressed with this tube that I didnt even bother to make such a mod. I agree that tubes can have different reactions in different circuits and can be optimized with different voltages to bring about subtle changes in sonics. However, I think the entire family of KR tubes, including the KR2A3 suffers from this apparent lack of midrange warmth. And increasing the voltage does bring more power but does not seem to improve the midrange or general character of this tube. I thought the KR2A3 had a VERY clean and clear sound thus providing more silence between the notes. It was also subjectively more extended in the bottom offering a very nice low end with a seemingly more tight bottom. Yet the KR tube's midrange did not have near the harmonic richness of all the other 2A3 I had on hand. In fact, it came in last in this regard, sounding much more like good solid state. Even the Sovtek 2A3 was able to sound more harmonically involving with better tone and the ability to convey the emotion of the music. The NOS RCA CRC VT95 Black Plates from '44 literally were an order of magnitude more involving and engaging, providing the type of subtle air and magic that was missing in the KR. The KR had great extension in both extremes but just did not have the refined and magical midrange compared to good NOS 2A3 or the cheaper Sovtek. In talking to a good many whose ears I trust, having various 2A3 amps, this was also the general consensus. Ron Welborne now no longer carries KR tubes and I dont think they have US representation. Actually, I dont remember Doc B every distributing the KR valve either. I do remember him carrying the AVVT Meshplates but not the KR. Perhaps he did at one time. Still, I think most recommended the KR as a good way to increase the power of your 2A3 amp as you could run them hotter than a normal setup, thus giving you an extra watt or so. What other 2A3 did you compare it to? My feeling is that if you did a direct a-b comparison with other 2A3, voltage modded to increase power or not, you would find it lacking in harmonic richness, which is where I came in with the "soulless" comment. I believe Art Dudley also did a comparison between the KR2A3, the Sovtek 2A3, and the AVVT Meshplate. The KR came in last for much the same reason. I had the beasts for a GREAT deal and ended up sending them back to the owner (Jack G) who was even finding them hard to bare in either his Wright 3.5 or the Moth 2A3. Complaints? The same. kh ------------------ Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-17-2002 at 11:02 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted January 17, 2002 Share Posted January 17, 2002 Arco, I just went through the A/B bug with OTLs and initially shared many of your impressions. I have however, returned to the friendly confines of a 2A3 amp. In my opinion, OTLs offer balls-to-the wall power and speed with high-efficiency speakers. They match impedances and, therefore, work particularly well with horns and are a great bridge between Push/Pull and SET designs. I have a Transcendent T8 stereo amp (25w/ch) which I compared against a Cary 845 (17w/ch) and a Sun SV2A3 (3w/ch) amp through a pr. of Khorns. The T8 matched the performance of the 845 in most respects. They both were very detailed and fast and compared with the 2A3, they had a much more pronounced bass. More volume in the bass that I thought possible from the Khorns! But when I measured the response of the amps using a test CD, I found that while the Cary and T8 produced more volume in the bass, the Sun actually charted flatter responses at lower frequencies while the Cary and to a greater extent, the T8 dropped off more severely below 45Hz. Most likely, the readings have more to do with system "synergy" than the amps which I'm sure can easily extend to 20Hz and sound better or worse in other systems so take my data with a grain of salt. Originally, I had built my system around the Cary and later modified it to suit the Sun so the tests were obviously constrained. Also, the Cary and the Transcendent were stock while the Sun was modified with upgraded parts (Black Gate and Jensen PIO caps, TKD pot, silver wire, etc.) so YMMV. I really enjoyed the sound of all the amps and each had its merits over the other but I felt that the Sun (and SETs in general) offer better imaging, a larger, deeper soundstage and more detail overrall. I just found the Sun more enjoyable in the long-run and I'm a sucker for that midrange "magic" that only SETs seem to offer me. Once again, these observations were constructed through a system that is very SET-friendly and only reflect my 'neophile' opinions but hopefully, they will add to the discussion. Current System: Oracle Delphi TT, Cal Alpha/Delta Dac/transport, Joule Electra LA100 pre, Sun SV2A3 amp, Cardas and Alpha Core (silver) ICs and cables, Khorns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted January 17, 2002 Share Posted January 17, 2002 Also, I forgot to mention the noise factor. The Sun was much quieter than the Cary 845 and the Transcendent T8 and that made a BIG difference in my decision. The Cary was the noisiest, followed by the T8 and I'm sure that without the mods, the Sun would be a much more noisey amp though I don't know to what degree since I haven't heard a stock version. I was able to cut the noise floor from the T8 in half by damping the amp with some sorthebane feet and exchanging the stock Sovtek 12AX7 with NOS (which also added a bit of detail in the bass). I'm sure that either of these amps would perform wonderfully with a less efficient speaker given their higher watts/ch. but the Khorns are brutal in their ability to highlight the slightest fault in a component and an audible hiss just drives me crazy! Sorry for the rant and good luck with your system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arco Posted January 17, 2002 Author Share Posted January 17, 2002 Mobile, Being quite sure that I read about my mod in DocB's site, I took out a Ron Welborne catalogue from the time he was the US KR representative. Apart the understandable commercial bla-bla (The KR is by far the best etc...) he also refers to your mod. Well, I'm no tech, but I can surely understand that the removal of R13 augments the plate voltage to take into account the better ruggedness of the KR tube. Hence the increase in output, as the OT is driven harder. And, yes, if you play a normal tube under this stress, its life should be rather shortened... What I was talking about was a modification of the value of the cathode resistor which, by the way, is always shunted to ground (in our case the R10). And here we have the enormous problem with the so called "boutique tubes", which are sold as direct 2A3 or 300B replacements but, in fact, they are not. And their manufacturers say nothing about it. Against their interests, I believe. Anyhow, I already told you that before the mod I also found the KR lacking in more than one domains...Not after. I will concead that we are not talking here about the most romantic of tubes, but in no way I would call it soulless. I will try to find a pair of Sovteks to see better what you mean... Aristidis www.aca.gr/pop_coumpas.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 17, 2002 Share Posted January 17, 2002 Instead of the Sovtek, try procuring a NOS pair of RCA JAN 2A3 CRC VT95 Black Plates circa early 40s. You will see what I mean in spades here. While I do feel the Sovtek is a more harmonically rich tube than the KR, I dont think it reaches the level of beauty exhibited by the RCA tube above. Still, if one were not to have other 2A3 tubes to compare to, how would you know what the KR is lacking? After living with the other tubes for over a year, and switching to the KR, the difference is very evident. And in this comparison, I will say the KR is really disappointing. I think you should get a pair of Sovteks regardless as it is about the only Sovtek tube I find worhtwhile, and amazing considering the price. It has more body and life than the KR at a fraction of the price. Still, the RCA CRC VT95 has a bloom and beauty matched with harmonic purity that is truly beguiling. The KR seems sterile in this league. As for that mod, I am not aware of this and have not seen it referenced regarding the KR valve. I did a search via Bottlehead and could not find it. If you have the link, I would like to see it. Thanks. kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-17-2002 at 02:02 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arco Posted January 17, 2002 Author Share Posted January 17, 2002 JBryan, Thanks for your input. I believe the SUN might be noisy because of its very high input sensitivity of 0.2V (and also apparent high gain). This combined with the KH's 104dB and a preamplifier with gain can break havoc indeed! With my previous preamp (chosen ad hoc), a DECWARE ZTPRE, I had no noise problems at all. With my current Hovland, I have built an input attenuator using Caddock resistors, with the same results and no loss in quality. I myself very much like SET amps and I will continue using them. What I tried to pass as a message is that for someone like me (big room, many different kinds of music...) the T16 is the best allround amp (i.e. the most versatile) for my tastes and needs. Its, in fact, the amp I would take with me in the proverbial island! But you should take this only as an academic assessment. Perfection is not of this world and I am not at all ready to dump all my other amps for the T16! Aristidis www.aca.gr/pop_coumpas.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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