Geo1

Vladi: On processors which are certified by THX, the upper limit for the .1 channel is 80Hz. All frequencies below 80 are sent to the subwoofer and above are sent to the other various channels. On some processors, this crossover point is adjustable so that it can be set either above or below 80Hz. On most processors, any speakers you set to "Large" will receive the full frequency range.

One way or another, the sub has to be amplified. Either it has an internal amp, or it is powered by an external amp.

Dynaudio are a fairly high end speaker, so it isn't too surprising that the salesman would be a snob. But, hell, what do we know, we're just customers. I have to say, though, that Klipsch is far from perfect itself. I bought my RF-3II's and RC-3II four weeks ago. At that time, they didn't have any RS-3II's in stock, so I paid for a pair of them and my dealer ordered them. Now, four weeks later I still don't have them and have gotten a couple of different stories on why I still don't have them. Now, this dealer is an authorized dealer and all this time, I could have bought the speakers from any number of unauthorized dealers over the net. I e-mailed Klipsch over a week ago inquiring and received no reply. Not great customer service either.

Basically, that's what I'm saying, but remember that all DD and DTS receivers can redirect the bass when it comes in through a digital input. It's the bass that comes into the receiver through the external analog inputs, which are most often used for multi=channel audio recordings, that the H/K can also redirect. I don't believe the Denons can do it. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

MarvinG and Fish: There is no industry standard for how the bass is recorded onto DVD Audio discs. It may be mixed into the front stereo channels, or into the LFE channel, or the surround channels. In other words, it varies from recording to recording. Unless you have full range speakers at each position, you may lose bass information and, therefore, not hear the entire recording. Most DVD players, even those which decode DVD Audio, don't allow you to redirect the bass to the channel(s) where you have the low frequency drivers. The H/K receivers have the capability to redirect the bass to the LFE channel so that none of that information is lost. On Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS 5.1 you don't have to worry about this because the industry standards call for all of the bass to be mixed into the LFE channel and all DD and DTS processors must allow for bass management through the digital inputs. For me, the power difference was not an issue. Keep in mind that in order to raise the volume of the signal by 3 decibels, you have to double the power. Therefore, if one amplifier has 100 watts and another has 50 watts, that just means the lower power unit will drive a given set of speakers at just 3 decibels less than the higher power unit. Also, a decibel is generally defined as the minimum change in volume that the average person can recognize. Three decibels is not very much. This is a gross oversimplification of the electronics involved, but it illustrates how the power rating affects the volume. With highly efficient speakers such as Klipsch, the power issue is far less important.

I'm going to second (or third, or whatever) what Vital said that you can't go wrong either way. I just went from a Denon 4800 to H/K 525 and the only differences I can see are the differences in features between the two receivers. The main reason I went with the H/K was to have full bass management for DVD Audio. On the other hand, I gave up some power reserves and THX certification, if that means anything. I also agree, though, that the H/K 7200 is not on the same level as the Denon 3803. A closer comparison would be to the Denon 4802. Good luck either way.

m00n: Yeah, isn't it funny how these things seem to come on so suddenly sometimes, lay you low for a day or two and then the weekend's here. Thanks, by the way, for your input into the decision making process.

Well, I ordered the AVR 525 from OneCall on Monday and had it in my hands on Wednesday. Thursday I didn't feel well and couldn't go to work, so I figured 'what the heck' and I went ahead and set up the 525. Don't want to infect anyone else at the office. Anyway, the adjustments on this thing are amazing. I could spend another two or three days trimming the sound for all of the sources and playback modes. I have a question, though, regarding the rear ports on the RF-3II's. Can the ports be plugged and does Klipsch make foam plugs for this purpose? The reason I ask is that I want to cross over to my subs at 60hz, but my RF-3's are only a foot from the rear wall and at that crossover point, the port makes the bass boomy. It improves if I set the crossover point at 80hz, but I prefer 60. Anyone know? By the way, thanks to all who gave advice on the H/K vs. the Denon. I love the H/k. Also, does anyone know where the port crosses over to the woofers on the RF-3 II's? Thanks.

Every time I read one of the other guys' posts about how great the H-K 525 is, I feel better myself. A couple of other ideas on wires and connectors. MCM Electronics sells a 12 guage ofc speaker wire called "Sound King" for as little as $.65 per foot depending on how much you buy. But either of the other suggestions sounds fine, too. And if you are industrious, you can buy bulk RG 59 stranded core coax cable (Belden 8240F) and Canare true 75 ohm crimp-on connectors and make your own high quality audio/video/digital cables. I highly recommend OneCall and have found them to be one of the most reputable on-line sellers you can deal with.

Congratulations on the speakers. You'll love them and after a couple of days, will completely forget your earlier concern over buying demos. I was also stressing over buying the H-K 525, but ordered it from OneCall yesterday. It's replacing my Denon 4800. The conclusion I came to, with some help (thanks mOOn) is that the H-K is a step up from the Denon. Finally, with cables, there are two schools of thought. One school says that they can hear audible differences between cables and that paying high prices for cables and interconnects results in significant improvement in the sound of their system. The other school says that so long as a cable and its connector are intact and not broken, they can not hear a difference. I have never read a report where anyone has ever been able to demonstrate an ability to tell a difference between cables in testing using scientific methods. Go with a decent quality cable with a decent quality connector. In my opinion, Radio Shack will do you fine.

Jef: I sounds like they are positioned OK. You know, I can't state this from personal knowledge because I haven't had a chance to really sit down and listen to mine critically, but I read that the Klipsch Reference speakers sound much better after being broken in. It could be that the RF's are broken in and the RC is not. Just a thought.

Jeff: I just bought a pair of RF-3II's and RC-3II and they seem to me to be very well matched. Let me ask a few questions. How far off axis do you sit from the center channel. Is it high up on top of a rear projection TV? Since high frequency sounds are highly directional, if the RF's are aimed directly at the seating position, but the RC is not, the speakers can sound different. If all the speakers are aimed at the seating position and they still sound different, maybe something is wrong with the RC. It definitely shouldn't sound dull.

I can't give you a whole lot of info on this, but one of the recommended placements for subwoofers, in a multiple sub setup, is to place one of the subs mid-way between floor and ceiling on a wall perpendicular to the other sub. I have no idea what the effect of this would be with one sub, though. If you decide to experiment with it, I'd be curious to know what you think of it.

I just bought a pair of floor model RF-3II's. I checked them very carefully for cosmetic flaws and found none. My reasoning was that since they came with the full manufacturer's warranty, I would be covered. Also, when you buy from an authorized Klipsch dealer, I would assume it's a place where the customers are watched to see that they don't abuse the merchandise and, probably, the speakers are just broken in. If you're buying five, though, and are taking three floor models, I would try for a lower price. I got mine for $550 for the pair. This tells me that they can still make a profit at that price. Good luck. I love the speakers, by the way.

Don't mention it. The "plug in" you're talking about is called an RCA connection. When you buy cables to connect your components, you'll get cables with RCA connectors.

Onadi: If I'm not mistaken, the Denon will just take the analog input from the Yamaha and convert it to digital, so it sort of defeats the use of the Yamaha D/A processing. Maybe, though, if you set the receiver to use the "external in" you might not go through the extra processing and can listen to stereo using just the Yamaha D/A conversion. Not sure of this. Try it and see if one sounds better than the other.

Antagon: I'm not familiar with that particular Onkyo, but to answer your questions--Are you sure the power rating is 80wpc at 6 ohms and 110wpc at 8 ohms and not the other way around? Usually you will get a higher power rating at lower impedence values. The trade off is that at the lower impedence values, the amp draws more current. That's why the power rating goes up. Anyway, most modern day amps, Onkyo certainly, have no trouble handling a 6 ohm load. It's only when you get down below 4 ohms that you need to have an amp with the ability to draw the current necessary to handle that load. Keep in mind that connecing speakers in series will halve the ohm rating. Next, if by "plug in" connectors, you mean banana plugs, you might have to buy some banana plugs, but most receivers accept various types of connectors including spade connectors, pin connectors, banana plugs and bare wire. I would be surprised if the receiver accepted only banana plugs. Finally, you're usually better off to connect the DVD player to the receiver using the digital (optical or coax) connection. If you use the analog outputs of the DVD player, the signal goes through unnecessary digital to analog and analog to digital processing. Of course, for DVD-Audio and SAC, you are limited to the analog otputs of the DVD player. This is due to copy protection issues. I've never bought from either of those internet places, so I can't help you there. Hope tis has helped.

Good point. The room is roughly 19'x18' with an 8.5 foot ceiling. The Denon is plenty powerful with the Paradigms and I think that with the efficiency of the Klipsch's, even the H-K would be OK.

I saw that review in HT. In fact, that's what got me thinking about the 525. That 90.4 watts at .1% distortion is with just two channels driven. But even with five channels driven, it puts out 73.8 wpc into 8 ohms. The Denon is rated at 125wpc with five channels driven into 8 ohms. The difference between the H-K's 70 wpc rating and the Denon's 125 is actually only about 2.5 dbs on the top end. More than made up for by the higher efficiency of the Klipsch's. But Frzninvt makes a good point about maybe getting cleaner power using the Carver amp for the stereo channels instead of relying on one power supply to amplify seven channels. Decisions, decisions. Once again, thanks for the input.

Thanks for the replies. This exactly what I was hoping for--the pros and cons. My interest in the bass management runs more toward DVD-Audio. With the H-K, you can control the bass that comes into the receiver through the external analog inputs. I run two Def Tech PF-15+ subwoofers, one in each main channel. A lot of DVD-Audio discs have bass mixed to the center and surround channels. Same with DTS multichannel music discs. With the H-K, if I'm understanding the features correctly, I can redirect the bass to the channels where my subs are located and not lose any of the bass that is mixed to the center and surround channels. I'm not sure if the lower power rating of the H-K is really significant since the Klipsch speakers are 8 to 9 dbs more efficient than the Paradigms and the cut in power only costs about 4 to 5 dbs at the top end given that doubling the power of the amp only gives you an additional 3db of headroom. Please understand that I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just playing devil's advocate. I appreciate anyone helping me think through this.

I have recently bought a pair of RF-3II's, an RC-3II and have ordered a pair of RS-3II's. I'm replacing a Paradigm system consisting of Monitor 7's, CC-350, ADP-150's and Atoms. I just love the sound and interior detail of the Klipsch horns. Anyhow, I've been driving the Paradigms with a Denon 4800 supplemented by a Carver amp since the Denon only has 5 channels of amplification. I'm seriously thinking of switching to the Harman Kardon AVR 525 for its bass management capability and seven channels of amplification. Even though it only puts out 70wpc, Harman is known for its high current capability and headroom and with the high efficiency of the Klipsch's, I don't think 70wpc is underpowered. Anybody have any thoughts on this? I have no issues with the Denon and there's nothing wrong with it. How does the Harman sound with Klipsch's? Is this a stupid idea, or does it sound reasonable? Thanks for any input.

Keith: Well, I've been here and there. Actually, I just bought some Reference speakers and started lurking around the Klipsch site. I came within inches of buying a pair of La Scalas about 20 years ago and always liked the sound of horn drivers, but these are the first Klipsch I have ever owned. I got the RF-3 II's, RC-3 II and RS-3 II. The RS's are on order and I'm waiting for them so I can set them up and then see what I might want to use for back surrounds.

The RS series speakers come closest to being bipoles. The horn drivers are in phase with each other and they are in phase with the cone driver. The things that differentiate them from conventional bipoles are, 1. that the horns are positioned 90 degrees from each other where, in a conventional bipole design, the drivers are positioned 180 degrees (opposite sides) from each other and, 2. the typical bipole has a pair of each driver and the RS only has one cone driver.