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"Any idea on how to adjust the autoformer for the mid-range driver? " Not on a Cornwalls crossover, sorry. I have La Scala's that I built ALKs for. "So I replace the autoformer with a different value? Or is it an adjustment of some sort?" It would be changing two wires coming out of the autoformer. You would also need to make other changes to the crossover as a result of those changes though to keep the crossover frequncies the same. Or build the ALKs for the Cornwalls which will let you adjust the mid-range level without having to make other changes to the circuit. If you build them yourself they would end up costing less then a good quality EQ would. Shawn

" This whole episode started when I did a A/B comparison to my friend's Chorus 1's and found them to be more pleasant sounding in the mid-range. I ears tended to get fatiqued with the cornwalls. Maybe something is wrong with my Cornwalls in terms of one of the components in the crossover. ...who knows?" I'm assuming the 'voicing' of the CornWalls is similiar to the LaScala's and if it is I'd look into adjusting the autoformer for the mid-range driver to scale back the midrange a few dB in relation to the woofer and tweeter. That may be a better (and cheaper) path for you to take then using EQ for this. Shawn

".......no, not practically true." The Allison effect effects certain frequencies at every point in the room. EQ will help let you correct for that. And since the EQ effects every where that is a good match. On the same point if your speaker/subwoofer crossover region has a peak in its response it too is going to have the peak throughout the room. Again EQ will help there. On the same point if a speaker/subs basic response has a peak that will effect everywhere in the room. Once again EQ will help. As far as EQing for room effects it has been my experience that you can improve things with EQ. But it takes a lot of time and very judicious use of the EQs. Shawn

" It is true that you could get a flatter frequency response out of a speaker with e.q.......but only at ONE specific point in that room." That isn't completely true. For things like the Allison effect (which is a power response problem throughout the room) and just peaks in the speakers response itself you can perform EQ that works for multiple points in the room. For other problems you do need to do a sort of averaging over an area to be sure your EQ isn't making things worse elsewhere. Shawn

Deleted post: Forget it... not worth it....

Win, Not to throw fuel on the fire but in the interest of correct info.... "Bootsy originated in Virginia, paid AOL service" Without info from AOL themselves I'm not sure you can tell where that IP address was connected from. It is possible that anyone on a dialup AOL account (or using AOL webmail) will show as originating in Va. as that is where AOL headquarters is located and their servers probably connect to the 'Net there. BigBusa, What is your IP address? Shawn

"The way you're trying to cover up for him you're obviously a good friend of ben clarkes or maybe you are in on this too." That IP address is the last stop the mail took on its way to you. It is probably the IP address of your ISPs mail server. That IP address is probably in almost every piece of e-mail you have received. You are looking at the wrong place for the IP address of the sender. One is 64.12.180.136 the other is 68.64.204.125 http://www.arin.net/whois/ Shawn

"It means the frequency response begins to roll-off around that point because of the speakers interaction with the rooms boundaries." The opposite is usually what occurs. You get 'room gain' in the deep bass which increases as frequency decreases down to a certain point. http://www.adireaudio.com/tech_papers/enclosure.htm or many of the pages from: http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22room+gain%22&ei=UTF-8&n=20&fl=0&xargs=0&fr=fp-top&b=1 Of course you will also get large peaks and valleys at specific points based on the room dimensions. You can use 'Visual Ears' to model the gain your room would have in the low bass. http://www.kbacoustics.com/visualears/index.html Finally you can take your subwoofer outside away from walls and measure its low end response. Bring it back in your room and measure it again using the same tones and amount of power into it. Shawn

" Fact number two, the anechoic chamber at Klipsch has a pressurized seal. CLOSED BOX. TIGHT. Every (low frequency)speaker placed in there cuts off at aproximately the same point. How do you explain that John?" If that chamber is truely anechoic at those frequencies then it isn't influencing (no reflections) the bass reproduction. So even if it were true that the room size limits the low end response (which it doesn't) then this wouldn't be what is occuring in that anechoic chamber. Along the same idea as the headphone example is if the wave needs to completely fit into the space it is in then how could we hear bass (or even midrange) at all with our tiny little ear canals? An example... fill your bathtub with water. Now go to one end and with a board or something slowly push up and down on the top of the water. With a little work you can easily create a wave which has a much longer wavelength then the length of the tub. It is no diffirent with sound waves in your room. Shawn

It most likely isn't you but your ISP. If someone has spanned his ISP using your ISP sometimes the receiving ISP will block mail completely from the sending ISP. Shawn

I think the H/Ks are good receivers with some of the better amps compared to other receivers. They also give you a form of Lexicon's Logic 7 processing which you can't get elsewhere except on a Lexicon. Shawn

"'m quite sure that when the rear of the driver is enclosed completely thats creating an infinite baffle." No, that is *usually* acoustic suspension. The movement of the woofer causes pressure changes in the cabinet which effect the woofer. Infinite baffle is when the back wave from the driver has no influence on the woofer itself. Usually that means the woofers back wave is firing into a completely different (non reactive) space then the front wave. For example this is an infinite baffle subwoofer: http://diy.cowanaudio.com/ib.html You can also have IB if the enclosure is so large that the back wave of the woofer has no effect but that is a lot more rare because of the sizing of the cabinet. The cabinet needs to be at least larger then the Vas of the driver... some say the cabinet needs to be 4x larger then the Vas to be a true IB. Shawn

Michael, "sitting on top of a pile of cd's on the coffee table about 2 feet in front of the listening position. ( I don't have a tripod" Room measuring is tough. You really should try to measure at the listening position as the rooms influence in the bass will vary depending upon the position in the room. It is also useful to try to measure at multiple positions to get an average... but doing that by hand with an SPL meter is very time consuming. " The results were measured in c weighting with the meter set on fast response." Probably should use slow as it will make it easier to read the SPL. Apply the inverse of 'C' weighting (what SVS is talking about) to get 'flat' measuring.. not including any response errors from the R/S meter itself. As far as frequencies go though in the bass you should do finer steps then 10hz. The finer you go the more ragged your response is going to look. Also, be aware that doing this with a SPL meter (as opposed to an RTA) has an additional problem in that the meter is just measuring SPL, not frequency. An RTA will break SPL down by frequency band. This is important to keep in mind in the very deep bass. If a person is pushing a sub too far down deep they can distort and you can get output at the harmonics of the test tone you are playing. For example you may be feeding the sub 16hz (which it can't handle) and it is distorting and putting out 32hz instead. An SPL meter just tells you how loud what you are listening to is so it won't tell you this. On an RTA you would see this as it breaks down SPL by frequency. If you have a laptop there are a few good programs you can try. See: http://www.trueaudio.com/rta_abt1.htm and they have a free version you can play with. The free version is far too broad from room measurments though. The top level is 1/12 and 1/24 octave bands which is much better. Also ETF is a very powerful package of measurements, see: http://www.etfacoustic.com/ It is very handy but has a pretty steep learning curve for the info it can give you. Shawn

"i interpreted that question as asking for what outboard equalizer - i.e. brand and model number - is the best!!! and others also addressed that question through the course of the discussion....." So did I, read the second post in this thread asking about what the intended use of the EQ was. It is hard to recommend an EQ without knowing what the person is trying to accomplish with it. "claiming that the "tone controls" or "bass enhancement feature" on your home theatre processor addresses that question misses the whole " Never said it did address the original question. The second post in this thread did address the question. We got sidetracked because of your claims of: "it is still a fact that 99% or more of the members of this forum DO NOT USE AND EQUALIZER...." and " i do not recall seeing ANY forum member list an EQUALIZER and/or SOUND PROCESSOR in their equipment list.... come to think of it.... in the many forums that i have visited, i don't remember seeing any equalizer listed by any of the members on those forums either....." and this too: "but it does come down to this..... most high end systems do not use equalizers and processors...." Which is then when we got into a discussion of the use of EQ and processing for music listening. "and for the record.... my tone controls are set flat for home theatre use as well as two channel listening..... " My tone controls are usually flat too. But just like EQ when needed (bad recordings) I'll use them. Far better to use them and then enjoy a recording instead of avoiding the music all together because of horrible sound. "in fact, i use the "direct" function which bypasses the tone control circuits on my pioneer...." No need for that on my Lexicon as the tone controls aren't done with analog circuits. They are done digitally so when they aren't used there is simply nothing there effecting the music. Shawn

"if that is what you really think then why aren't you using them???" I never said EQs should be used for everything... I said they should be used properly. I am using them where appropriate and they do improve the sound. The room has huge influence in the bass, which is what my subs reproduce thanks to the processing of the Lex. in the form of digital crossovers, and I use parametric EQ to help deal with that. The Lexicon's time alignment processing helps to make the blend between the subs and the mains much more seamless. Lexicon's 'Bass Enhance' processing further enhances the perception of bass in my room by increasing externilization and increasing the aparent spaciousness in the bass. See: http://world.std.com/~griesngr/multichan.pdf for more details on that. My center also has two bands of parametric on its powered woofers to help account for the Allison effect which will vary depending upon the center height. The Lexicon offers tone/tilt controls (types of EQ/processing) which are handy for bad recordings. And it has a very sophisticated form of a 'Loudness' control (EQ/processing) which varies depending upon the actual SPL at the listening position. So unlike most 'Looudness' controls it is never boomy/muddy from too much boost... just nicely balanced bass at any volume. I tend to have that on almost all the time. And I use the Lexicon's surround processing (Logic 7 Music) for almost all of my music listening. When the systems split the reason I'd be using the Meridian on the other system is for its TriField processing. So I think it is very safe to say I use both EQ and very high quality processing to improve my music listening. Shawn

"i noticed that they were all referring to home theatre applications..." No they aren't. Plenty of them are meant for two channel systems but can also be used in HT applications too of course. "..... what are you using for equipment?." My system is a little bit in flux as I'm building a dedicated room for it (stagger studs, double walled, floating ceiling joists to 'sound proof' it) and it will be sorta splitting into two systems. My traditional system for both music and movies is: Lexicon MC-12B L/R - Dzurko Acoustics/ACI Jaguars Center - ACI Veritas Sides/Rears ACI Sapphire IIIs L/R subs ACI Titans (BFD for subs, replaced Audio Control C131s) LFE sub Quantum Sound/Servodrive ContraBass L/C/R/LFE amps Crown K2 surrounds H/K PA5800 Sources: Sony, JVC and Pioneer CD/DVD/DVD-A players Marantz 10B tuner Pioneer LD-704 w/Lexicon LDD1 ReplayTV 5040 couple of Sony MD players, Mitsubishi S-VHS VCR, McCormack Micro Integraded Drive for Grade SR-60 and Entoymotic ER4S, Koss ESP-950 Sota Comet/Grado Platinum/McCormack Micro Phono Drive When the room is done some of the speakers will be staying where they are (wife won't let me take some of them down stairs as she decorated some of the room around them) but I will probably be running them with a Meridian 565 processor. The Lex. is going downstairs to the new room with most of the sources. LCRs speakers will be La Scala's w/ALKs and either 511B or 811B horns. (I'm experimenting with them now and want to measure their low end response with an AC SA-3051 and ETF). Amps for them are Monoarchy Audio SM-70/SM-70 Pro. Not sure on sides and rears yet. Possibly Heresys but maybe some custom surrounds that I'm thinking about. The subs will be moving down there too. Shawn

"..... most high end systems do not use equalizers and processors...." In your opinion. In my experience it is the opposite.... EQs and processors are used to very good effect for music listening by many with very high end systems. "some purists even prefer to use a source (cd for example) with a volume control so they can run it directly into their amplifier, bypassing a preamplifier.... lowering the distortion and avoiding any coloration that a preamp may add to the signal..." Yeah, I went through the purist passive pre-amp phase years ago. Shawn

"Minn you are absolutely correct their are NO high end consumer equalizers being produced these days that I am aware of. " The C-131 is discontinued but Audio Control makes other units... some that are very powerful like 'The Diva.' There are other units available though too. Rane makes couple of 'home' models. For subwoofer duty only the Behringer DSP 1124 FeedBack Destroyer Pro is a very popular unit and offers 12 bands of parametric EQ per channel and is very inexpensive. Not the best choice for your mains though. For bass duties Marchand makes their dual purpose 'Bassis' unit. In reality any good studio quality (not sound reinforcement quality) Pro EQ can be used in a home environment too. You just might need TRS to RCA adapters or something like that. Some surround processors and receivers are getting EQ functions too. B&Ks have offered a notch filter for quite awhile, Meridian recently added room EQ, Pioneer has their system and so on. Speaker manufacturers are adding a few bands of parametric EQ to speakers/subwoofers too to deal with the reality that the room they are going to be used in is going to be an EQ of sorts. Infinity has their RABOS system on some of their models and Revel has something very similiar. Theil has their 'Smart' crossover controller for their sub which has some EQ functions. ACI has their AWS (adaptive woofer system) on a few of their semi-active speakers. And of course there is the EQ on steroids offered by companies like TacT, SigTech and ClarityEQ (now DeqX) which goes far beyond what any traditional EQ can do. There are many other examples then these too. Shawn

"Frzninvt, does this mean that if I do all my listening to movies and cd's using digital connections (which I do), an EQ would be pointless? EQ's are only good for analog signals?" Many EQs are analog devices so they are fed an analog line level signal. This doesn't mean you couldn't use one though, it would go between your Parasound and your amps. Shawn

Gary, The C-101 was a 10 band full octave EQ... correct? Like I said about they are handy as a sort of recording specific tone control but they are useless for correcting room problems as the bands are far too wide. A 10 band full octave EQ is *very* different then a 30band unit or esp. a parametric unit. Shawn

"and it is still a fact that 99% or more of the members of this forum DO NOT USE AND EQUALIZER...." So? How many have tried using the proper type of EQ for the job at hand and spent the time learning it and having the proper tools needed to set it up? Lots of people say EQ stinks without ever hearing it properly used. Just like plenty say the same thing about Klipsch speakers, or vinyl or tubes. Shawn

That really is going to depend on what you are trying to do with it. For a more advanced type of tone control a 10 band 1 octave EQ will work well but that same EQ would be pretty horrible for other EQ uses. A 30 band 1/3 octave EQ is more for a set and forget it type of system where you subtly alter your speakers characteristics. But in the bass that doesn't really have enough resolution either to try to tackle room problems. And with 30 bands it isn't as useful as a type of tone control. For room problems a parametric EQ can work well but they are harder to setup and really don't work well for tone control duties. Shawn

Another thing to try... if you are running the LAS as 'Large' speakers try setting them to 'Small' in the Yamaha and see if that helps.... assuming your have a sub. By rolling off the bass to the LAS you will be saving power and it might help on the overloading you are seeing. As far as 80 watts into a LAS how big is your room and how long do you want to keep your hearing for? I run my LAS high passed at 60hz on a 25w/ch amp and the system has no problem whatsoever of hitting THX Reference Levels (105dB peak, main channels at listening position) with power to spare. And I have DIY ALKs in mine. Shawn

JM, "I would go 7.1 format over 5.1 or 6.1." Definitly, a single rear center speaker has psychoacoustic problems as human hearing can actually mistake sounds coming from directly behind a listener as coming from in front of them. Just the opposite of the effect you seek with a rear center channel. Having two rears wider spread helps to avoid the rear to front inversion.... even if they are both reproducing a mono channel. Of course if you have a Lex. then it gives you stereo rears using Logic 7 to make things even better yet. Shawn

fini, You definitly want fairly high amperage so it can handle pretty much any amp you would want to use on it. Also find a unit with both output voltage and output current meters. The current meter is handy (if it just keeps going up and up) as it can help show problems potentially before you have brought the voltage up high enough to damage things. I bought mine from Angela instruments but they don't have any listed online right now. Shawn