IB Slammin
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Posts posted by IB Slammin
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These are the oddballs with the flush baffle and no grilles.
Called 'Decorators'. It's possible to find Heresy, Cornwall, and Klipschorn in this style. I believe the wood underneath yours is Birch Plywood (no veneer). It will be hard getting all that black out of every pore and crevice.
They sold a lot of them raw, meaning no finish. The first owner could put on whatever finish desired.
......and then there was the price.... ordered a pair of decorator "verts" from Hope in '72..... think I paid $350.00 for them (small dealer discount if I remember)
Killer speaker and price for a kid in school! .....Ordered Oiled Walnut in '75 ......the wife..
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Looking to pick up a used 2 channel SS McIntosh amp. I know there are some folks here that have a lot of experience with them powering their K-horns and I have none. I know I can count on the blue meters, but I am hoping for a sound improvement also. I have considered picking up a Mac 5 channel amp to run everything, but I think I will concentrate just on two channel audio as this is where I am at 90+% of the time.
Thanks for your input
GO HOGs!
Love the SS MC100 mono blocks and MC250's. (and 2 MC250's bridged = 100wpc) Both units have a tube like quality.
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if you are doomed to listen to 5,000 slot machines in an Indian Casino..........forever
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..........when you believe Arkansas has any chance in hell to beat Georgia tomorrow. Ha. IBSlammin will be slammin his fist tomorrow
LOL
If they couldn't beat Alabama when they played so bad it doesn't give them much hope.
You boys ........... Suck
Stacy MADE him watch the Hog 'bamma game........Seti shouldn't even be allowed to speak the word Football.
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Waiting for suggestions.
Jebus Dog! Just get it over with and buy a pair from Bob! (and get your project underway) just kidding with smile........
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From the linked site...
"With 'no horn', the cone movement increases 4 times for each octave decrease. With a horn the speaker cone movement is reduced to 2. Efficiency increase is approx 4 times (+6dB). In theory, power to the speaker can also be doubled (+3dB). Total advantage is approx +10dB with increased directivity."
You get ~5x reduction in cone motion with horn loading for equal SPL output (not 2x), and an efficiency increase of 7x to 10x (not 4x).
The total advantage between horn vs. direct-radiating (baffle) is between 15-20 dB in SPL (or alternatively, reduction in required input electrical power of 50x-100x) and a typical 20-25 dB reduction in modulation distortion--the most notable difference, IMHO.
Harmonic distortion levels are lower for horn-loaded due to lower required input power/driver amplitudes required to generate the same SPL in-room.
All this assumes the same driver used as a direct radiator vs. in a proper horn-loaded configuration, i.e., apples-apples.
Why someone would subdivide this advantage into separate smaller quantities--with the combined effect to obfuscate the perceived difference (but NOT hearing difference)--is beyond me.
So let me get this right.
You are saying that a 107db reflex unit has more harmonic distortion (due to the need for higher input power) than a 107db horn unit?
107db 1w @ 1m is 107db 1w @1m ! Horn or direct-radiating bass reflex.
There are many wonderful things about horn loaded LF bins that best most reflex designs. But an increase of harmonic distortion due to low efficiency is something I can't buy. As well as excessive diaphragm excursions being a fault. I just can't find those things in a well designed direct-radiating bass reflex bin.
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So my concern is how to harden the surface to make it less absorbing for the sound wave. Any of you considered that?
I don't think I'd worry about that too much.
I'd just paint the horn however you think would look the nicest.
Agreed..
Just paint and clear coat it.
Looks great so far.
Me too. Just paint those bad boys........
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"Nice. But why the bullnose vs the sharp V?"
Looks.
" Looks like width is wider than LS??"
Same width and depth as the Belle.
" Are you going to use K-33 woofer?"
No, PPSL with four 8's in a plenum. Although it will accept a 15 if desired. The four 8's sound much cleaner than a single 15.
The bullnose looks very cool!
But lets not be coy.........smile It's going to sound different than LaS LF.
I KNOW that you must have design model projections. What frequency response are you expecting, etc?
Have read too many of your posts to buy "looks" as the major design criteria.
Come on. Give!
Regards,
tc
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The original Eliminator bass horn is a W bin similar to a Lascala bass horn, a little larger, goes lower, and has less distortion than the Lascala. The big advantage is that it was designed so that it could be cut out with a Skil saw. Two of these bins with one JBL radial horn per side could rattle your teeth when used for PA.
Always thought they sounded pretty good in the right setting.
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Well, I guess when it's not made by Klipsch?
This
Agree with much of what has been said............" made in Hope"..... is the deal.
Cloned bass bins have been constructed exactly to Hope (PWK/Roy) spec's and with K31 drivers. Perhaps there are numerous examples out there??? Is this about badging or are we questioning the sound quality of clones?
The K402 horn and some of the active units are just too wonderful.
But lets remember that the original Jub ran a K403 horn and a passive network. That setup sounds too wonderful as well.
We are speaking of cloned bass bins here right?
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Mine was Vanilla Fudge.
SSH
Moby Grape....
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Yep, and, somehow, an exceptional range of knowledge on tap, which only comes up when needed.Bob is one of the good guys. He also seems to have a good deal of common sense.Bob is old as dirt and an onery old coot. Makes fun of me and short people.
He is the place to go with an audio question.
BEC offers cost effective products and upgrades with the principles of thought from PWK.
Does his homework. Class act.
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Curiosity. What RCA cables are you using? I had some of this issue in my old house with the first Peach and a Tercel. At some point ditched my RCA's and got some better ones after sold the JMA. Later had a BB extreme, Peach II and still Have a super merlin. These didn't do this....in fact dead quiet.
I have his old Peach II into SS mono blocks......cheap and very old Audioquest RCA's......Dead Quiet.....
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ok, i emailed Bob about the board material these speakers are made of, this is the reply
bruce
Those are made of a material called MDO. Medium Density Overlay. The core is plywood with a coating of MDF. The cabinets were made by Chris Munson. At the Klipsch gathering in Hope in (I think) 2006, Chris brought the cabinets and I brought the internals and we assembled them in Hope and demonstrated them to the people attending the gathering. They were one pair of the first two pair of Cornscala prototypes built in the Cornwall size cabinet. Lots of forum members and lots of Klipsch employees have seen and heard those speakers.
If you look closely at the top edge corners, you can see the very complex joint the Chris made for joining the material.
Thanks,
Bob Crites
Hey guys don't forget me. I worked on them as well......Pix of me inside with a screw gun........Putting in the networks I think ?
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shep, just love where you are going with this!
My modest DBB two channel system is in a small heavily treated room.
AH! CDP with up sampler and Semans CCa tubes. Peach ll preamp dumped into two bridged Luxman SS M-117's for the bottom. The top end is provided by two MC 100 mono blocks
Much tight and clean slam plus spooky mids are had in this place.
You got it. Just keep going!
regards,
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Well its that time of year again to experiment with a new speaker build. My last speakers were dbb's using the crites cw1526c woofers. Having owned all the heritage line I was never fully happy with the bass. The dbbs was definitely a step up from my lascalas. Never being content, over the last few years I managed to acquire 4 jbl 2242 18 inch woofers. My original idea was to use them as subs, but went another route. So last fall I built dual bass bins for them and they replaced the crites woofers in my 3 ways.
I have to say from 40-300hz they are monsters of slam, but they drop pretty fast after 350hz. So I have decided to build a pair of jwc's 233hz tractrix horns and mate them to a pair of jbl 2485j 2 inch compression drivers.
The final design is going to be:
- jbl 2242 dbbs from 40-350hz
- jbl 2485j on the 233hz tractrix horn from 350-3500hz
- b&c de250 on a seos 12 horn from 3500hz-20khz
When it is all said and done if it doesn't work out I picked up a pair of peavey fh1 bins from Claude and could use them from 100-500hz and go 4 way using the 2242's from 35-120hz.
I finished a prototype of the 233fc tractrix. I threw it together in about an hour so it will not win any awards in the looks department, but it allowed me to get a few quick measurements. I had to take it in room as I have no way to go outside and take measurements. Here is the graph taken 1 meter from the mouth of the horn at 0 deg
A man after my own heart. I use the cw1526C in my DBB's. Small format tractrix horn with Altec 902-16A. JBL 2404 baby cheek tweets. ESN DBB 450 nets.
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He calls out Bob Carver.......interesting.
Speak up Mark! I thought I was going blind........
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Perhaps you two should start a thread on the efficiency of horns? This FAQ (not really a typical thread) is concerned with why horns subjectively sound better, a subject clearly difficult enough to tackle without also trying to discuss the engineering-related subject of acoustic efficiency at the same moment.
[/qu
"So again, what does 'controlled directivity' have to do with why horn-loaded loudspeakers sound better?"
Basically, in small listening rooms such as home listening rooms there is a great advantage to keeping excess midrange and tweeter energy off the walls, ceiling, floors and other furniture, directing that acoustic energy instead toward the listeners without first reflecting off of another surface. The advantage shows up as dramatically improved soundstage imaging and the perception of realistic playback.
"If that's true, then why do dipole loudspeakers have a large perceived depth of field?"
Planar dipole loudspeakers radiate approximately equal amounts of acoustic energy forward and rearward, but not much from the sides, top, and bottom of the loudspeaker. That acoustic energy radiating to the rear of the loudspeaker bounces off the front wall and returns to the listening position as delayed reflections, as described above. That delayed reflected energy doesn't exist on the recording so the effect of this "front wall echo" is perceived as increased depth of field.
The problem with that of course is that this added acoustic reflection information isn't in the original recording. You can achieve the same effect by using a reverberation unit, where you can also control its intensity and delay time. The only way to control the front wall reflections using planar dipoles is to move the speaker either into the room more or back toward the front wall. Most successful setups using these type of loudspeakers usually have larger dimensions in room length, width, and height to accommodate adjustment of the front-wall reflection. This usually requires at least 6 feet (2 metres) of spacing, which intrudes significantly into the usable space of the room. Additionally, just like all other types of loudspeakers, it is very desirable to keep any near-field acoustically reflective objects out of the near-field of the loudspeaker in order to preserve their soundstage imaging performance.
Cone-type dipole loudspeakers typically have the added disadvantage (or advantage, depending on your point of view) of having increased off-axis energy that the reflects off of side walls and other close-by furniture. These early reflections can create havoc with your soundstage imaging as described in the Corner-Horn Imaging FAQ.
So if the standard by which we measure "sounding better" includes accuracy in recreating the original sound space of the recording itself, dipole loudspeakers actually intentionally create a different sound space image than the original in order give the listeners a feeling of depth that wasn't actually there to begin with.
"So what's wrong with that?"
Nothing, as long as the listener really doesn't care about accurate sound reproduction.
I got all of that. But Chris and Mike, you and me listened to the KPT 415 LF unit below a K402 horn. A 107db combo. Didn't see/feel excessive diaphragm excursions. What I did hear/feel was IMPACT from the reflex.
Just saying.....
Warm regards,
tc
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More insight into PWK's way of thinking with again these historical papers from the sitemap.
Mike, I actually laughed out loud at "How not to have stereo". Great stuff!
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Can you say Deja Vu??And will the re-issue ALSO have the "elvish runes" on its back,?I've been growing out of my original for years now...and maybe it is time to get a new one that is NOT a size medium, but maybe a size extra-large??Hopefully, the reissue will be SILK-SCREENED instead of the "iron-on (quality??)" of the original. The stretch fabric of the original tended to stretch much further than the transfer did, which tended to break up the transfer and it would separate from the cloth when washed.I would love to see this shirt as a re-issue, too!
Yes, this pic is of me back when I was a slapping together a hundred-plus HDBRs a day...raggedy-looking dude wasn't I??
Wow Andy! A flash from the past. My first audio gathering. Father (Daddy) Dee was such a great host!
Product samples were sent from ALK and Juicy Music for our evaluation and enjoyment.
Many of the old long time forum guys were present. The audio writer from Fla drove up @#$ I cant remember his name, Deano, BEC ......
Must have been '04 or '05.
That pic was shot in the church sanctuary, Iron Man was playing as I recall.
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Tweet, Bruce and Mark,
I agree with all points. For the most part......
But isn't it music dependent? Playing acoustic jazz at 100db is different than playing electronica at 100db for example.
Listening to a 12wpc amp into super efficient horns....a thing of beauty.
BUT 100db of serious LF?
Plug in the insertion loss of a high part count network?
I detest floppy bass.
My ear tells me headroom is needed. Maybe not always but for the rest of your life
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Deano,
The boards that you built for Mark 1101.......Best LaS I ever listened to (with stock drivers)
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I rip all my music with Itunes and set it to lossless aiff, there are tons of ways to do this............I use Itunes because its free, and user friendly. Playback quality mainly depends on source quality. ripping lossless means no loss of bits / no compression and so playback means no loss of bits no compression
drawback to lossless aiff are space consumed
for me anyway
Yep, lossless only. A nice card and good power supply are the ticket in a music server INHO.
My "Too Much Music Machine" has a TB drive internal and two TB external. Plenty of space
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that's why... las vegas.
I am still looking to build a mono setup
http://www.itishifi.com/2010/03/catenoid-loudspeaker-1956-1960.html
Thanks Moray I adjusted images to be a little easier to read. These are pretty rare and a great find.. If it hits 30hz it is about 30db down.
Schu,
Your question shows my hand in playing the age card. Lee Catenoid.....
In 1972 I bought a book named Hi-Fi Loudspeakers and Enclosures by Abraham B. Cohen. Among other things Old Abe served as VP of Engineering for University Sound a division of LTV-Altec. It was a 1968 revision of the original 1956 copy and became the audio primer of my youth.
Side Bar: Paul Thayer was CEO of LTV-Altec and a family friend of my wife. Got to hang with him a bit in the early-mid '70's. As it was the early '70's
all I remember is his three Khorn (center) system., the monster stacks of Mac amps and the stuffed things he had killed in Africa. Anyway, google this guy. His life was.......Sorry back on track: Included in this old book rough plans were for Khorns, the University horn, some WE designs, A7's AND the Catenoid horn. The down firing horn looked pretty cool at the time.
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all I remember is his three Khorn (center) system., the monster stacks of Mac amps and the stuffed things he had killed in Africa. Anyway, google this guy. His life was.......
Thoughts on Klipschorn Refinish
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
Glad to see someone is still using the 698! Loved it back in the day.
Always thought if I ever painted a speaker, I would take it to a body shop to get a good job. Perhaps a piano black finish or tons of black lacquer.
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