Deang

I was out at the Cary Site earlier reading Dennis Hadd's link at the bottom of the home page regarding vertical biamping with two of his Rocket 88's. Pretty soon here I will have two Super Amps, and I figured while I have them both, I mind as well biamp and see how it sounds. What I don't understand, and what he doesn't explain, is WHY go vertical biamping, when horizontal biamping achieves basically the same thing without having to resort to goofy "Y" interconnects in order to combine the inputs of the amps. Anyone have any insight into this? I am curious about the impedance characteristics of the individual drivers when you biamp. If I put one amp on the tweeters, and another on the woofers -- are both of my amps still seeing a nominal 8 ohm impedance, or something all together different? ------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Metal drivers make metal music shinef>c>s>

The TLC-1 is a nice unit, though for that same $600 you can get a pretty decent tube preamp from www.audiogon.com. I decided some time ago that the use of a preamp nets better sound, especially in the areas of dynamics and HF detail than passive units. I think most here feel the same way. ------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Metal drivers make metal music shinef>c>s>

The killer is that potential buyers have to factor in $350 - $700 for packing and shipping costs. I can do $2200 max. ------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Metal drivers make metal music shinef>c>s>

Tubes will last about three years, give or take 6 months. I based this on a little over 3000 hours of total usage. The power output tubes will go first, followed by the drivers in both amp and preamp, and then, the tubes for the buffer stages. It's not really good to power on and power off everyday. OTOH, it's not good either to leave them on all the time. The best approach, and the one I use -- is to schedule your listening time. I leave my gear powered up for four days and powered off for three. I listen Monday-Thursday and kill it Thursday night before bed. Too much chaos around my house through the weekend -- so this works best for me. No sonic risk at all running any combination of SS and tubes. Most folks find the greatest benefit in a combo situation by running a tubed preamp with SS amp. Of course, both tubed preamp and tubed amp is better than combination schemes. f>s> ------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Metal drivers make metal music shinef>c>s>

I bought the 9000ES and decided to keep it based just on it's Redbook performance. Seems to me there is quite a bit of classical on SACD. f>s>.------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Metal drivers make metal music shinef>c>s>

What in tarnation is a triode wired pentode? Let me guess -- my AE-25? Hey, you know what I just found out? The DJH version of the Super Amp is class A/AB. What's up with that? f>s>------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Metal drivers make metal music shinef>c>s>

Now Ray, I was really trying to avoid bringing up the issue of fluctuating impedance with frequency. Now you went and muddied up the waters He's right though. But it's better if you don't think about. Just know that if a speaker is rated at 8 ohms, it mostly is, even though is may dip down to 4 ohms or lower at a certain frequency. It's usually only for a mirco-second though. This idea of wiring two sets of speakers in 'series' or 'parallel' is more applicable to us old hippies who used to stack our 2 sets of Advents and drive 'em until our receivers caught on fire. Think of wiring 2 sets of speakers in parallel as being the normal way of doing it. You stack two speakers, hook'em up to the left channel, then grab the other two, stack'em, and hook'em to the right channel. That's parallel. Doing this with 2 sets of 8 ohm speakers changes the impedence to 4 ohms. 'In series', you hook up one set of speakers to the reciever as you usually do, but then you do something really different with that 2nd set. This works best if you keep the extra speaker used for each channel close to the first one -- or else you will have cable everywhere. You use another speaker cable (usually a short jumper like a foot or so), and connect the extra speaker directly to the connectors on the rear of the speaker that is already connected to the receiver. You do the same thing for the other channel and like magic, you now have two big ole 8 ohm speakers. You could wire your KG's this way -- but you would only have about 30 wpc. It would however be easier on your amp, and maybe 30 watts might be enough. At any rate, you can also go ahead and just hook them up to the spring clips on the back of the sub, which would be in parallel -- and run them at the 4 ohm impedance your amp normally sees, but like Ray said -- be careful. Don't drive it to loud and get that receiver. f>s>------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Metal drivers make metal music shinef>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-23-2002 at 10:51 PM

...I was thinking of using a pair of Marantz ma6100 THX Ultra Certified mono-blocks for one speaker rated about 125 watts. Should I use one amp for the tweeters and the other amp for the woofers (bi-amping)....OR....should I bridge the amps together...f>s> Tom is right. To biamp with a monoblock you would need four of them -- one for each driver. In order to 'bridge' you have to have amps that are bridgeable. This term is applied to stereo amps that have a left and right channel, and a switch that combines them. You are talking about mono amps that only have one channel, so what is there to bridge? What you want to do is get two of these monoblocks, one for each channel -- and then birwire, which is simply running 2 additional speaker cables for each channel. Four cables come off the binding post of the amp for the left channel and go to the four binding posts on the back of the speaker (negative/tweeter, positve/tweeter, negative/woofer, positive/woofer). You repeat the same for the right channel. Also, like Tom said, you can buy four monoblocks and use one for each driver. However, you don't need an active crossover if you tie right into the back of speaker (because you will be using the crossover inside the speaker). f>s>I am still a little confused to how bi-wiring works? you mentioned the "MIT Terminator 2 Bi-Wire cables from Audio Advisor...How exactly do they work? What does the passive network box do?f>s> If you read the MIT white papers you will lose half of your chromosomes. What they do is deliver signal engergy as in-phase power.f>s> Currently I have 8 AWG speaker wire running from the amp to my KLF-30's. Can I run 2 strands of wire to each speaker or do I need the passive network box?f>s> The network box is something specific to MIT cables and has nothing to do with biwiring. Just my opinion, but you should be using at least 12 gauge zip cord for all your speaker connections. BTW, you will need (4) fours strands to each speaker!f>s> Tom saidf>s> An outboard crossover is definitely needed when bi-amping otherwise you would be relying on the natual frequency rolloff of the drivers which may not sound the best.f>s> I don't understand what you are saying here. If you have two amplifiers, you can biamp by simply designating a channel for each set of binding posts on a biwirable speaker, and use the crossover in the speaker.f>s> Maybe MIT's passive networks have a kind of a high-pass and low-pass filter to prevent too wide a frequency signal going to their repective driver(s). I say this because the four leads coming from the passive networks are definitely marked "High Output" and "Low Output" (meaning HF and LF).f>s> The parts inside the networks are basically inductors. They are tweaked for HF and LF respectively, but they don't really do anything as far as tailoring the actual frequencies. There is no filtering, because the inductors are in-line with the signal, and not in the signal path.f>s> ------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Psalm 122:6f>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-23-2002 at 10:05 PM

Damn Trespasser, don't you trust me?f>s> ------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Psalm 122:6f>c>s>

Klipschitisf>s> ------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Psalm 122:6f>c>s>

Check these out. You can probably talk them down.f>s> http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?miscrcvr&1029691234&class&3&4& http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?miscrcvr&1029421997&class&3&4& http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?miscrcvr&1028928142&class&3&4& http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?miscrcvr&1027876203&class&3&4& ------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Psalm 122:6f>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-23-2002 at 08:27 PM

Well, as recently as six months ago I would have said you can never have too much power, and then I got sucked into this tube thing. Still, more speakers are blown by having to little power than too much. This is because a lower powered amp will go into clipping sooner and clipping will destroy a tweeter right quick. With more power, you have more headroom and can avoid clipping. Notice the KG 2.5's take 375 watts peak. The peak rating is closer to what music actually does. It goes up, it goes down -- the input signal is never 'continuous'. It would be tough to get 375 watt peak with a 75 watt reciever. So, you got these pretty nice speakers. You are probably going to want to do HT and multi-channel sound. More power would be good, but more power costs more money, and you are on a budget. Also, you need to know that not all watts are created equal. It's an odd principle to explain, but a receiver using discrete outputs instead of IC op amps will sound better and have more headroom for any given power rating. I would take 40 watts of Onkyo or Sony ES over 100 watts of Pioneer or JVC. I still think NAD comes to the top as far as receivers go. Why don't you buy a used unit. You can save big time money and get more receiver? You posted this in the 2-channel forum. Are you doing the HT thing with your next reciever and multi-channel sound? How about a 2-channel receiver with a 4 ohm rating so you can stack those babies and make some noise. f>s>------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Psalm 122:6f>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-23-2002 at 08:17 PM

The speaker determines the impedence. Most receivers are rated for 8 ohm speakers. The situation with a multi-channel receiver is a little different. There are 5 separate and distinct amplifiers inside, and each is designed to run a set of 8 ohm speakers. f>s>------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Psalm 122:6f>c>s>

Thanks for that post Clipped. I have been corresponding with this nice fellow regarding these. Correspondence began with him emailing me, letting me know that he was the "idiot" selling the Cornwalls. f>s>------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Psalm 122:6f>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-23-2002 at 06:14 PM

The KG series are NOT shielded. There are several ways to biamp - your way is not one of them. Horizontal Biamping: You have a set of speakers with birwiring capability. That is, each speaker has four 5-way binding posts on the back -- 2 for the high frequency driver (1 positive and 1 negative), and 2 for the low frequency driver (1 positive and 1 negative). You then use two amplifiers, and use one for the highs, and the other for the lows. Vertical Biamping: Same as above except you use one amp for the left channel, and the second amp for the right channel. You use two separate sets of speaker cables for each speaker, and then join the inputs of the amps together using "Y" connectors. Pro-Biamping This is where the frequencies going to the drivers are "split" in front of the amps. That is -- electronic crossovers are used in front of the amps and then the amps feed the drivers directly. HT-Biamping Simply adding a sub does this. The low frequencies are sent to the sub and the crossover sends everything else to the mains. Your Promedia system is a form of biamping, simply because it uses a sub and splits the signals. All biamping involves the idea of splitting the signals and moving them to the appropiate drivers. What you are describing is not "biamping". Whatever one chooses to call it -- I don't think it sounds like a good idea. Your Promedia system's amp resides inside the sub right? It is a 500 watt digital switching amp. There is ONE amp with dual power supplies. One feeds the sub and the other feeds the remaining 5 channels (you actually have 50 wpc). The nominal impedance of the SYSTEM is 4 ohms. What I believe is happening here is that the Promedia satellites are probably 8 ohms speakers, and when they are all hooked up to the amp -- the impedance drops to 4 ohms. It's what happens whenever you hook up multiple sets to an amp -- the impedance is halved. Now, if you hook up all 4 KG's -- you will still be at 4 ohms as far as that 2nd power supply in your sub is concerned. If you hook up just 2 KG's, your impedance will be 8 ohms, but your usable POWER will drop to around 34 wpc. So, if you hook 8 ohm speakers to an amp rated at 4 ohms, your power rating drops by about 1/3 -- and if you hook 4 ohm speakers to an 8 ohm rated amp, your power goes up about 1/3 of the rated power. If you use all 4 KG's in your situation, the danger is playing the system too loud and going into clipping and frying a tweeter. If you use 2 KG's and you drive it too hard, you risk melting down the amp in the sub. Either way, be cool and don't crank it too loud -- and scrape that money together for the receiver!! f>s> ------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Psalm 122:6f>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-23-2002 at 06:06 PM

If they are not listening with super-efficient horns, I discount their opinions to the clearance rack.f>s> So what is ole Dickie Olsher using in the way of speakers theses days? Guess we can discount his opinions to the clearence rack too? My Anthem CD-1 used the Burr-Brown chips, excellent parts quality throughout, and a tubed output. Pricey unit too. The 9000ES ran circles around it. f>s>------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Psalm 122:6f>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-23-2002 at 06:40 PM

The consensus at the Hi-Rez Highway Forum members at the Asylum is that many of these players emasculate the highs to get the players to sound warmer like analog. I didn't realize my Anthem was doing it until I started doing comparisons with my Marantz and Sony. These 'warmer' players may be a better choice with Heritage -- but I found the 9000ES much more engaging with the RF7's. f>s>------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Psalm 122:6f>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-23-2002 at 01:44 PM

Ya know, I really hate reading your posts with all those floppydoodle guys jumping around. It's annoying as hell, and I can't think straight.f>s> I have the ProMedia 5.1's, and was hoping to be able to hook the KG-2.5's to the outs on my PM5.1 amp and use it with the sub and my computer. Well, the amp is 4 ohm per channel, and the speakers are 8 ohms.f>s> Let me get this straight. You are going to hook up 4 KG 2.5's to an amp designed to push itty bitty little computer speakers? It should actually work. Your impedence issue is a non-issue. The PM5.1 amp is rated at 4 ohms because it is designed to drive multiple sets of speakers -- which is exactly what you are doing anyways. Hooking two sets of 8 ohm speakers gives you 4 ohms -- which is what the amp is rated at.f>s> Also, the PM5.1 amp only puts out 60 watts per channel, and the KG-2.5's need 75-375. If I was to bi-amp them using two channels for each speaker, tis would correct the impedence issue and help with power... right?f>s> The power handling specification for the KG2.5 is 75 watts (maximum) and 375 watts PEAK. They don't NEED 75 watts. 75 watts is the most they can take. You have 60. We already dealt with impedence. You have 4 channels at 60 watts each. Also, I don't really understand your concept of biamping. Best not to try any bizarre wiring schemes with an amp already designed to run 4 speakers.f>s> Also, when the time comes for me to get a reciever, which one would suit these best? I guess it would have to be a 5.1 reciever, since I do have 2 pairs. How many watts per channel should I look for? What are some good ones that are fairly cheap... <$150f>s> Sorry, but this Sony is the best I can do for you. Good luck! f>s> ------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Psalm 122:6f>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-23-2002 at 11:58 AM

That 'muffling' sound almost sounds like to me what you get when a horn becomes detached from the driver. When you compare left and right are they pretty much the same loudness? Also, with the exception of the 'distortion', do both speakers have pretty much the same sonic signature? If you are sure the horns in that channel are working properly -- then you probably ended up with a defective woofer. Call the Klipsch parts department and ask for Trey Cannon. He might let you send him the bad driver and send a new one back to you. f>s>------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Psalm 122:6f>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-23-2002 at 11:20 AM

Certainly would trade my Perfect Audiophile Wife and music-loving family for one. I'm pretty sure you forget to insert the word "NOT". f>s>------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Psalm 122:6f>c>s>

I can't imagine ANY CD or DVD player being responsible for ANY noise. The Arcam unit seems to be a 'hot' favorite right now. But so is my player of choice, the Sony DVP-S9000ES. I believe you can still get these at www.JRmusicworld.com for less than $950 shipped. Do a search on this site for my review on this unit and also at www.audioasylum.com I consider both the 222ES and 9000ES to be killer units on Redbook, and you get SACD to boot. f>s>------------------ Deanf>s> AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Psalm 122:6f>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-22-2002 at 03:29 PM

Talk about poor etiquitte. I had a guy make me an offer of $975 yesterday morning and I accepted. He said since he lived in Cincinnati, he would come pick it up. So I emailed him directions to my house. I didn't hear anything back from him so I sent him another email asking him to let me know when he was coming. Nothing. So, another email late yesterday afternoon asking him if there was any chance he could come Sunday morning around 10A.M. because I had to be at work by noon. Nothing. So today I sent him ANOTHER email asking him to please respond so we could conclude the transaction. FINALLY he responds that he has changed his mind. I wrote back saying that since he made an offer and I accepted, backing out meant I was going to leave negative feedback. He responded that I wasn't allowed to do that because a "transaction" never took place. I said hogwash, and told him to read the whole thing. Criteria for feedback submission: Only transactions resulting from an Audiogon listing qualify for feedback submission. In addition, feedback may be submitted only if one of the following events have occurred: - Buyer winning a bid at auction, if reserve is met. - Seller receiving a bid at auction above reserve price. - Buyer sending payment to a seller in a verifiable form. - Seller shipping an item to a buyer in a track-able manner. Feedback should be left after your transaction has reached some form of finality (delivery, cancellation, attempted settlement, etc). You may submit at most one feedback per transaction, so wait until it is completed. I also took him to AudiogoN Expected Etiquette: under Making offers: Some items may be listed as Or Best Offer (obo), where you may make offers. This is less strictly defined than the auctions, but we offer some guidelines. If you make an offer, you should be ready to follow through, if your offer is accepted within 24 hours. This kind of thing has gotten completely out of hand on AudiogoN. I feel like the only way to weed these people out is to discourage them from using AudiogoN as an on-line sales tool. The only way to do that is with negative feedback. Since this person finally apologized, was 'new' and had two positives -- I told him I would let it slide, but asked him NOT to do this anymore. f>s> ------------------ Deanf>s> AES Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Psalm 122:6f>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-22-2002 at 03:15 PM

Why not just look inside the one that sounds 'right', and compare the wiring and parts makeup to the one that sounds 'wrong'? ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Psalm 122:6f>c>s>

Placement, in relation to the room, may account as much or more in differences between the left and right channel than the crossovers. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Psalm 122:6f>c>s>

That's the old horn sound Man, they're supposed to sound that way ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Psalm 122:6f>c>s>