JBryan

I've been to Gary's place and the Khorns would look nice in his room but he'll never get rid of those zebrawood CWs. Besides, his basement is already looking like an audio storeroom with Heresy's, MAC gear and those Altecs, etc. so any additional gear would certainly be a strain on storage - not to mention his relations with the wife! Have Fun -Bryan

There's an ad in today's Sun for a pr. of Khorns. I called out of curiosity and the fellow (Mitch) gave me the following info: Model - KCBR Serial # - 418, 419 (?) Xover - Type AA He says that there are no blemishes, dings, dents and he hasn't used them in years. They have been finished in "pecan" to match his teak furniture. He's moving and wants to sell them rather than haul them away. He has an idea of what they're worth but is looking for offers. He's located in Calvert Co. about an hour away from DC and Baltimore and his phone# is 301.855.7131. Here's the ad... "SPEAKERS corner Klipschorns, exc. cond., MAKE AN OFFER." Also, there's another ad for CWs... "SPEAKERS, KLIPSCH CORNWALLS, unfinished birch cabinet, exc. cond., $900/pair 410.761.6966" AND... "STEREO 901 BOSE SPKRS;..." $500 and he'll throw in a Yamaha amp, cass deck and CD player - WOW! Have fun -Bryan

The guy prefers a pickup in SF so maybe he's waiting for a local response. There's also a chance that he realized that he could get more $ or maybe he's reconsidered his options and decided to keep them. The more likely possibility is that he's already made a deal on the pieces but hasn't revised or removed the ad - it happens. Surely, at that price he's had plenty of opportunities to unload them - even locally so I doubt they're still available. - Bryan

I didn't know Orvis has ventured into the audio market? I do like their reels and the rods are pretty nice too.

Neo, The 805C monos are excellent examples of SET amps and you would not have any problems matching them to most 90+dB efficient speakers. The 2A3 is a great tube to work with and there are plenty of well-designed amps built around that tube but you're painting yourself into a corner with its 3.5 watts. Your room is small enough and if the music doesn't exceed 90dB, you'll be fine but you're just getting started - why put such constraints on yourself? You may very well end up with a 2A3 (or 45, 25, 10, etc) amp but that really depends on the efficiency of your speakers and your willingness to compromise power for finesse. In the meantime, you should concentrate on getting a SET amp that will not leave you wondering what all the fuss is about. The obvious mistake I see folks committing is trying to match a low-power SET amp with less than ideal speakers. At first they are enamored by the detail, transparency and dynamic transients of the SET sound and can't imagine how they lived without the "magic". As they start playing more demanding music and cranking Jimi Hendrix to concert levels, they begin to notice a bit of compression and distortion at the top and a discernible lack of bass. At this point they take one of two paths - either they scrap the amp and complain that SET just doesn't have enough power for anything other than club jazz or chamber music or they realize that they need more effficient speakers. Since a decent, comparatively priced PP or (god forbid) SS amp will provide more than enough watts to power their speakers and a 5dB increase in efficiency more often than not requires an investment of several thousand dollars, the choice becomes somewhat of a probability. Only those enthusiasts willing to spend 1000s more will have the opportunity to hear a properly matched SET system and there's just not that many adventurous souls out there. Of course, this doesn't even address the need and expense to match sources, ICs and speaker wires which is essential for sensitive SET amps. Given all the expense and experimentation that must go into a decent SET set up, its no wonder so many folks bail after encountering their first obstacle or if astute, never venture into the low-power bog to begin with. While I don't think that higher-power SET amps are the end-all be-all of SET, I would suggest that more people would be satisfied if the amp was able to drive their speakers in the first place. In my limited experience, a 45 amp (1.5w) will not drive Cornwalls in my room (16'x25') to 95dB without compression and underwhelming bass but will chase people out of the room on Khorns before it begins to clip. A 2A3 amp will drive both speakers fairly well and a 300b will offer more than enough power for the CWs and Khorns. I've never heard the RF-7s but I'd be very wary of the impedance match with SET amps - at least as much as the efficiency. Bottom line is that you need to consider a lot of factors when matching components with SET amps and it is far easier to start your journey with more power than you need. It'll allow you to build a system and get a good impression of the SET sound. Once you have an idea of what SET can offer and what factors you're willing to compromise (power, finesse, $, etc.) you can try other amps and speakers to get closer to the ideal system and your very own audio nirvana. Its just a suggestion and I wanted to point out that several of the folks encouraging you to go for the 805Cs (or higher power amps) have taken similar journeys and are offering sound advise so you wont become disillusioned and put off by SET. Have fun - Bryan

My LS experience didn't come to fruition but it was such a deal that I'll pass it along anyway. A "friend" asks me to find him a pr of PA speakers for his church. He said that they would replace a pr of LS that were "too big" for the sanctuary and couldn't be wall mounted as he and the minister wanted. The deal was that I could trade the PAs for the LS - straight up. I found a pr of Community PA speakers and an amp for $150 and took them over to the church. My friend and he minister thought they were perfect but the minister wanted to try out the new speakers before letting go of the LS - fair enough. I didn't hear anything for a couple of weeks and eventually asked my friend for an update and he said that the LSs were gone and he thought I had picked them up. I suspect that that the minister or one of his croonies decided that they wanted the LS or more likely, that they could get some real $ for them and had taken them away. I never got the LSs nor found out where they ended up and I'm still out the $150. Oh well, it was a learning experience and besides, I wouldn't know where to put the LSs and how I could possibly get them by my better half. -Bryan

Don't forget the Outlaw 1050 6.1 - $500 direct from the manufacturer. Great reviews and awards (2002 Budget Product of the Year - Stereophile Home Theater Guide). Check it out at http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/1050.html Have fun - Bryan

Pawn shops, like thrift stores and yard sales are a fun place to shop since you really don't know what you're going to find. I've found several pieces of audio equipment there when audio was the last thing on my mind. Just the other week, I bought a Emotive Audio preamp and could've bought a pair of Decware EL84 monoblocks. In fact, I'd say that the best time to find a piece of gear is when you aren't looking for it. It can be very frustrating otherwise.

Here's one of Bruce's recent projects... http://www.transcendentsound.com/single%20ended.htm Its a single-ended OTL design. Sounds like a fresh approach and a possible compromise. Imagine - the detail and speed of OTL combined with the air and transparency of SE. Such a deal - you can build the 4 w/ch monoblocks (strapped) for $1500 and as with many OTL designs, the noise level is "acceptable". I will be interested in reading the reviews -Bryan

Here's one...http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?ampstube&1071596162.

-- removed post for the common good and betterment of all living things --

Aren't the new DRD 300b amps from Ron cheaper and from what I've heard, much quieter. Just a thought. - Bryan http://www.welbornelabs.com/drd300b.htm

"I would be interested to hear what you thought of the 6C33 Russian tube SET (or PP) you have heard as I got a chance to hear this tube in Parallel SET configuration for half a day in the guy's system with Silverline Sonata II. We got a chance to compare them to some other offerings, most notably the Wright 3.5 with RCA and TJ Mesh 300b/2.5v Maybe you can guess what amps there were but interested to hear your impressions of the 6C33 in whatever you heard it in." Kelly, The 6C33 amp I'm listening to is a Maxwell Audio prototype which I have no intention of buying but am giving a whirl for S#%ts & giggles. Its a dual mono SET design that puts out about 8w/ch and has 6SN7s in the driver stage. It comes with a matched preamp but I'm listening to it through the Erato until I have a better take on its qualities. One of my biggest peeves is that it has SS rectification. I haven't spent a lot of time with it yet but my initial impressions are that its quiet, presents a relatively good image and has a nice authoritative bottom end. Its a bit rolled off on the top and lacks the detail and air of the 45, 2A3 or even the 300b amps I've heard. I will try different wires and preamps and for some reason, I think this amp will sound better on Cornwalls so I may switch them over this weekend. I'll know more about the amp in a few weeks but I'm sure that it won't be replacing my 45 amps anytime soon. Of course, I could be wrong but at $4500 (retail) for the amp and pre, I think there are better values out there. -Bryan

What if he actually were to sell them.....?

Kelly, You are correct about my Sun SV-2A3. It had already been modified with new caps and silver wire when it came to my door (how do you keep up with this stuff?). Later, I had the amp modded to accept 45s, it was rewired and the PS was boosted. It was only recently that I heard a stock SV-2A3. I found a well-built kit version at a great $ and convinced my cousin to try it on his Heresys. I bought it for him and had it in my system for a couple of weeks before he picked it up. The sound was very different from my modded Sun - even with 2A3s in it and I would definitely recommend at least the 1st 2 modifications I listed above. As for the Moondogs, I heard them about 3-4 years ago at a friend's house in your neck of the woods - sorta (Greenville, NC). He hadn't done a thing to them and I'm pretty sure he bought them used so they could've been a kit originally. They had the MagnaQuest trannies and Sovtek 2A3 which, knowing him, were original. They were hooked up to VOTTs and the rest of his gear was nice but I can't remember any at the moment. We listened to mostly progressive music all weekend and I was very impressed but I had ProAcs at the time so I thought low-wattage SET amps were not in the cards (little did I know). Unfortunately, I haven't kept up with him as he has since moved from NC so I don't know if he's still into audio or if he traded his gear for a guitar. Of the gear listed, I spent anywhere from a few minutes (FI, Tronix) to several hours (Wright, Welborne) to several weeks (Moth). I've also heard a couple of the Bottlehead offerings but didn't have much of an opinion and don't think they were in the same league as the others. That's as full a disclosure as I am prepared to attempt without incriminating myself further. I combined my impressions of the Sun amps because I tend to go on and on with my posts and I didn't want to bore anyone beyond my normal limits. Good catch though Kelly - shows you're paying attention. Maybe next thread we can discuss the 45, 300b, 6C33c and 845 amps I had the pleasure to experience - or not. -Bryan

Max, Adjusting the VTA by lowering the arm increases bass response but reduces detail. Too much and the bass gets muddy. Raising the arm increases detail and adds air to the midrange but too much and you lose bass. Its always a compromise but it sounds like you've got the idea nailed. I've heard that the Shelter is not very sensitive to VTA so your adjustments must be very minor. Please give us your impressions of the Shelter when you've put a few more hours on it. I'm very interested in your take as I may put one on my xmas list (which I'm sure would be a gift to myself). In regard to the amp, I'm still curious about the driver section. Does it use tubes and if so, which ones? - Bryan

NEO33, Plenty of good advise has been offered here but to really make a determination we need more info from you. 1. The size is your listening room. 2. Speakers are you considering. 3. Sources and gear in addition to the AE-1. 4. How much you want to spend on an amp. 5. The "ideal" sound your looking for (eg. detailed, big soundstage, lots o' bass, etc.) All these factors will help you (and us) tailor a system to suit your needs. The Sun amps are very nice right out of the box and with a few mods, they sound wonderful. I'm biased but the transformers really make a huge difference in SET amps as they determine the parameters for detail and extension and Tamura makes some of the finest trannies out there. In its stock form, I'd say the Sun is competitive with the 2A3 offerings by Wright, FI, Moth, Tronix and Welborne although I haven't heard the DRDs yet. My quick impressions are... -The Wrights (Mono 8) are fine amps and sound best without mods (good parts synergy) but tend to be sensitive to electricity and a bit noisy. - FI monos with Tango trannies sound better than the monos with Magnaquest and the Stereo version but all tend to be very noisy. Good parts and a very nice image. - Moth and Tronix amps are IMHO the least impressive of the list but I can not explain it...just didn't sound very SETish in my system. Also noisy and more rolled off than the others. - The Welborne (Moondog) amps have better parts and compared to the others here (including Sun), sound the best right out of the box. I should point out that I didn't hear the Moondogs in my system so comparisons aren't exact. They had a nice image and good bass response compared to the others. Maybe just the slightest roll off in the top and less detailed than the Sun but then again, I'm biased. The noise level was lower than most but still noticeable from a few feet away. - IMO, the stock Sun sounds OK and has more detail and extension than any amp on the list other than the Tango FIs which compare favorably but are noisier. Its noisier and lacks some of the bass authority of the Moondogs and generically, stereo amps don't have the separation and imaging of monoblocks but with a few mods the Sun becomes a great amp. First, throw out the pots to a install a nice stereo pot (I use a TKD but there are better ones). This will eliminate 80-90% of the noise. The drop is quite dramatic and I'd say this offered the biggest improvement to me but then as you may have noticed, I really don't want to hear any noise from an amp. (parts cost- @$100) Next change the caps. I used 2 Black Gates for the input stage and 1 in the driver stage and a Cerafine 100+100uf cap to boost the power supply. This improved the image and added extension and bass but added the slightest bit of noise. (parts cost - @$125) The other mods offer very slight improvements in the overall sound but still have benefit. Rewire with six9 copper. If the amp on eBay is a kit put together by a novice, rewiring may be a necessity. I tried silver but didn't like it as much. I also installed better RCA jacks and speaker terminals. (parts cost - @$150) The result was a much cleaner sound with better bass and a quieter presentation. I'd put it against any of the offerings above and it'd come out ahead in most respects except separation and imaging. After all, I've had all the listed amps in my system (except the Welborne) and each time I've gone back to the Sun which ironically was my first 2A3 amp. With the Sun, you'll get good value and for a few hundred $ more, you can have a great amp. I've since had the Sun modded to accept 45 tubes and have never looked back. I think given your music preferences, if you get very efficient speakers (+100dB) I'd strongly suugest that you try a 45 amp like the Korneff but that wasn't your question, was it? Have fun - Bryan

Guy, If your dad can try the Carys out in his system for a couple of weeks then who cares what the others, including me have to say about them! Hell, I'd try out any gear in my system before taking anyone else's word for it. I've made lots of mistakes in the past based on assumptions that were just plain wrong. Dennis makes some great gear and he's made some crap but then so has Audio Note and CAT. My only concerm would be if the amps weren't local and had to be shipped as I'd hate to get a friend involved in a insurance dispute. Other than that, I'm sure any friend would be more than understanding if the amps didn't work out. Have fun - Bryan

Max, I would agree that the driver tubes will make a big difference in the gain and brightness areas while the power tubes offer extension (especially bass) and fullness. However, I didn't see any divers nor mention of them on the site. Does the amp have a tube driver section and if so, what tubes are used? If its a hybrid (aka Sonic Frontiers, etc.) then you'll definitely want to use warm-sounding tubes like the EHs you have (pretty convenient) or the Svets. Generically, KT-88s sound like brighter, more powerful EL-34s with more bass - a good compromise between the EL-34s and 6550s but they may be too harsh if you use tubes like 12AX7s or run SS in the driver stage. - Bryan

Also, a octet of NOS Mullards will set you back at least $500 and much more for the metal-based version. Not the best bang for the $ in my opinion and the Svets and EHs offer a very close copy and a great value. YMMV - Have fun, Bryan

Max, NIce looking amp ya got there! I have a little experience with EL-34s and of the EH offerings, I'd suggest the "fat bottle" 6CA7s. They're actually copies of the early Sylvanias I think while the ones you refer to are the EH version of the Mullards. The "Fat Bottles" seem to do a little better in the bass - tighter and more defined. I thought the Mullard-type EHs were a bit muddy down under. If you listen to rock at high SPLs then the "fat Bottles" would do you well. If you prefer jazz or classical, then I'd suggest the Svetlana ("winged-C") EL-34s. They are also copies of the fabled Mullards but I think they are more musical and have a cleaner midrange. They lack a little bass compared to the "Fat Bottles" but sound better everywhere else which may make a difference with your musical preferences. On another note, I like dual mono amps and have been enjoying a 6C33c amp with a similar set up to yours. I thought the DM idea would indicate a separate power supply for each channel (essentially being monoblocks built into a single chassis) but your amp doesn't appear to have that feature. Have you noticed any difference in separation from monoblocks? Also, I was looking at the specs and wonder how the amp does noise-wise with your speakers. Please fill us in on your impressions as curious minds want to know. Thanks, Bryan

Congratulations on the Khorns. I was just reading through your posts and realized that you've had them in house for about 24 hrs and were initially" impressed" with the bass and a few hours later you were somewhat disappointed with the bass. Its perfectly understandable that your opinions can vacillate so quickly and I imagine it will continue for a while yet given your anticipation and expectations that have developed since you started looking for Khorns. I have a friend who gets way too excited about audio gear. When he buys a component, he thinks its the best he's ever heard and he just gushes over it for days. Then he's silent for a week or so and suddenly, he has to get rid of it. At first, I had no idea what this was about and I scored several sweet deals before I caught on. Now I try to make him keep whatever it is for a few days more until he snaps out of his funk or remorse. I usually offer to buy it so he doesn't feel the urge to pawn it off on the first person who shows interest. I also tell him to hang onto it until I can come over and then I'll just sit on my hands for a while. Once the cycle is broken, he's pretty calm and can rationally contemplate his purchase. He still may get rid of the gear but at least its a choice rather than a reaction. I'm not necessarily comparing the two of you or suggesting you share his audio anxiety. What I am saying is that it is possible that eventually your emotions will settle a bit and you will be able to evaluate the Khorns with a more even disposition. I will point out that given your set up, I'm sure the bass can be improved upon with a few minor tweaks and a pr of false corners. I think the Khorn is a great speaker but its very system-dependent and definitely not everyone's cup of tea. Have fun and as you said, thank gawd for patience! - Bryan

Al, John, If the bass horn limits the woofer's frequency to 400dB then is the 2.5mH inductor in the circuit simply to control the impedance? This is all very interesting and I think I'm beginning to understand you 2 - kinda scary! Al, I already have the 2.2 mH foil inductor laying around and just wanted to know if I could use it in place of the 2.5 as called for in the type A schematic. If I'm reading you and John correctly, I may not even need the inductor at all which would be my preference. -Bryan

OK Gary - I'll fess up. I bought your ALK xovers but haven't put them in yet. I didn't realize that they were older versions and now I have to figure out how to modify them to accept bi-wires so I can compare them with the pair of Type As I'm building which will be bi-wireable. I've been busy with other fun chores recently so I haven't really gone to much trouble. I haven't even asked Al K for advise so I've really dropped the ball in that respect (are you listening Al?). You know how it goes - I was thinking that I could simply plug and play but its never that easy. To complicate matters, I'm listening to a couple of amps and a preamp that have fallen in my lap recently. I bought a Rogue 88 a couple of weeks ago and then a friend essentially gave me a 6C33c amp and the matching preamp which I have been enjoying quite a bit. I didn't want to make any wholesale changes to the Khorns until I had heard the new gear so I wouldn't get the wrong impression or worse, confused. I have a few questions and comments about these amps and may actually start a new thread - I think that would be a first for me. I'll get it together soon and stop playing around for fun and start playing around for real! When I do set things up, I promise to send a full report back to the forum - OK?. -Bryan

Max, Tom makes a good point - the cart will take about 200hrs to really break-in and that's when you will hear what it can do. Also, you're right about the 901 being known for its stellar bass reproduction so I would look elsewhere for the problem. If the cart is getting a bit long in the tooth you (which is very doubtful given that the cart is a recent offering) you will hear a loos of detail in the highs first and then the bass will get "woolly". The Shelters are not very sensitive to VTA adjustments but you may want to drop the angle a bit and see if that results in more bass - too much and you'll lose some of the detail (its always a compromise). On these carts, setting the azimuth is critical so you should check and re-check and then check again. The only other suggestion would be to get the Record News Test record if you don't already have it. The record will help you dial in the tracking, azimuth, and VTA among other things and I find it very helpful after getting through the intial learning curve. Have fun and keep us informed of your results and impressions. I'm leaning toward the 901 as my next cart and I'm very interested in your experience.