sivadselim

You are correct, sir. Yes, it's OK. The crossover has separate high and low sections. It won't know that there is no tweeter connected.

Selected breeding or selected inbreeding? []

Sounds like he's got under control, to me.

Ah, I see. But don't you mean the receiver has a fixed low-pass filter @ 150Hz? []

Remember, his receiver has NO subwoofer output (or digital crossover, for that matter). If he connects his speakers to the subwoofer's speaker-level outputs, then his subwoofer applies a fixed high-pass filter of 100Hz to its speaker-level outputs. He can't adjust this; it's fixed. The only thing he CAN adjust is the subwoofer variable low-pass filter (erroneously called the 'crossover' by most). This is why he is correct in saying that he would 'probably' have to use a 'crossover' setting nearer to 100Hz if he runs his speakers crossed off of the sub's speaker-level outputs. He is also correct in saying that if he runs his speakers full-range, that he would use a 'crossover' setting on his sub that's closer to 35Hz. As I told him, in either instance (crossed off the sub or full-range), he should adjust the subs 'crossover' setting to a setting that HE prefers. In fact, the best way to do this is to disregard what the actual number value of the 'crossover' setting may be, and just focus on 'dialing it in' to a setting that is most pleasing to the listener's ears. I'm not sure I understand how you have your subwoofer connected and your receiver set up, wuzzzer. Could you clarify this? How are you running the subwoofer, connected to the receiver's sub pre-out, "from about 80Hz and down"? With its own 'crossover' or with the receiver's crossover? And if you are using your receiver's crossover, how are you sending the Fortes a full-range signal? Are you using an 'LFE+Main' type setting? If you ARE running the Fortes full-range, then the 80Hz crossover you have arrived at is dictated by the Fortes' low-end capabilities, the high and low-pass filter slopes that are involved, your room's response, and your own personal preference. When running a subwoofer with speakers that are running full-range, and utilizing a subwoofer that is connected to a full-range signal, the 'crossover' (it's really a variable low-pass filter) setting that is used at the subwoofer will be somewhat dictated by the low-end capability of the speakers, but should be adjusted by the user to a setting that the user finds most pleasing to him.

It's your decision, DP_redbear. Try it both ways. Since you don't have a receiver with a subwoofer output, there aren't as many benefits from running your front speakers crossed-over as there would be if you were using a receiver's digital crossover. But there are still benefits. If you cross the speakers over at 100Hz (since you have no other choice), the idea is that the woofers won't have to work as hard to reproduce the lower frequencies, and will instead be "freed up" to reproduce the midbass to midrange frequencies more cleanly and more accurately. And you use the subwoofer for doing what it does best; reproduce low frequencies. Theoretically, yes, that's how you would do it, but it isn't so cut-and-dry. Whether you run the speakers crossed-over OR full-range, since there are slopes involved (the subwoofer's variable low-pass filter slope, the speaker's own natural roll-off when run full-range, and the subwoofer's high-pass filter slope if the speakers ARE run crossed-over) as well as a room response, it is best in this situation for you to 'dial-in' the subwoofer's variable low-pass filter (it's 'crossover') setting to a setting that sounds best to YOU. Yes, if you run the speakers full-range, this setting will 'probably' end up being between 30Hz and 50Hz and if you run the speakers crossed over, this setting will 'probably' end up being between 80-120Hz. But, no matter how you connect the speakers, you should adjust the subwoofer's variable low-pass filter (its 'crossover') to a setting that YOU prefer. I explained the benefit of running the speakers crossed over, above. If you run the speakers full-range, then the Sub12's variable low-pass filter (its 'crossover') setting that you would use would be a lower setting than what you would use if you ran the speakers crossed-over. Under which situation the subwoofer performs 'best' is arguable. But, as I said, the idea is that if you do run the speakers crossed over, then the subwoofer is used for what it does best; reproduce low frequencies. But, whether the subwoofer is 'better' at reproducing those frequencies between ~ 35Hz - 100Hz than your speakers is arguable and depends upon the subwoofer's capabilities. Again, you should try it both ways and see what you prefer. I suspect that in your particular situation, you may prefer the speakers running full-range and the subwoofer covering those frequencies below which the speakers naturally roll-off. EXPERIMENT! There is an additional benefit when running a subwoofer and speakers crossed over with an A/V receiver's digital crossover. Since the digital crossover is applied prior to the amplification stage, the receiver's amplifiers are not sent a full-range signal. Since the low-frequencies (which are the hardest to amplify) have been removed from the signal that the amplifiers are sent, they have to work much less to amplify the signal that they ARE sent. Freed from the burden of having to amplify those low-end frequencies, the receiver runs cooler and its amplifiers are able to amplify those frequencies that they ARE sent much more cleanly and accurately. But, depending upon your needs, you don't need to rush riht out and buy an A/V receiver. Will you always be running a 2-channel + subwoofer setup? Will you ever use the receiver for movies? If all you need is a 2-channel + subwoofer setup, then you may find that your current receiver is perfectly fine for your current needs.

I'd either replace the sides with KL525s so that you have 3-KL650s and 4-KL525s, OR replace the KL525s and the sides with KL650s so that you have a total of 7-KL650s. Another option would be 5-KL650s and 2-KL525s for either the sides or the rears. Can you tell I don't like the KS525s?

Yes and yes. I'm not sure what receiver you have, but the "B" posts may represent a whole other pair of amplifiers or, more likely, the "B" posts simply represent a parallel set of binding posts off of the same 2 amps as the "A" binding posts. Either way, it doesn't matter, because the sub, being self-powered, presents no load to the amplifier that it's connected to.

Did you do a search on toggle switches? (that picture is HUGE - 2.76mb - btw)

Yes, a truly DD5.1/DTS5.1 capable receiver would be quite an improvement over Pro-Logic, but not necessarily because of the bass-management capabilities. Depending upon your exact usage, BP, you CAN get very good performance from a subwoofer that is connected via speaker-level connections, sometimes even better than that provided by a "modern" AV receiver's bass-management, particularly for music. Not sure how you are connecting your DVD player to your current receiver, but if it is via a 2-channel analog connection, the LFE channel is being dropped, anyway.

When using the speaker-level inputs and outputs, you would set the subwoofer's "crossover" knob (which is really just a variable low-pass filter) WHEREVER it was necessary to achieve the desired performance with your front speakers in your "room". The room's response around the 100Hz high-pass filter as well as listener preference would dictate this exact setting. If the user desired a lower "crossover" (really a variable low-pass filter) setting, he could connect the speakers to the receiver's full-range speaker outputs as I describe above, instead of to the subwoofer's high-passed speaker-level outputs, which, depending upon the speaker's capabilities, should afford a much lower "crossover" (really a variable low-pass filter) setting.

That is correct. However, if you are connectiing the subwoofer via a speaker-level connection, you can also simply connect the speakers to the receiver's speaker outputs instead of to the subwoofer's speaker-level outputs if you wanted to send the speakers a non-high-passed, full-range signal. Then you would dial the sub in to meet the low-end frequency capability of the speakers instead of to the 100Hz fixed high-pass filter. Make sense? He recommended setting it as high as it would go if you are using a receiver's digital crossover and its subwoofer output. This is not the situation in your case. If you connect the sub via a speaker-level connection, you WOULD use its "crossover" knob (which you now know is really just a variable low-pass filter) to adjust the subwoofer's output appropriately.

That is not really a continuously variable crossover control. It is simply an adjustable low-pass filter. The subwoofer has fixed high-pass filter setting (not sure what the setting may be, it's usually ~ 80 to 100Hz) that is applied to it's speaker level outputs. So, the low-end of the frequencies that are sent to speakers that are attached to the subwoofer's speaker-level outputs is fixed no matter where the "crossover knob" is set. The "crossover knob" (which is really just an adjustable low-pass filter) is used to "tune" the subwoofer as so desired to that fixed high-pass filter setting.

Yeah, unfortunately the RSW series subs do not feature speaker-level inputs. You could try a speaker-level-to-RCA converter. They're inexpensive and can easily be found at a car stereo shop.

Although it's not "proper", the unfiltered outputs WILL actually work just as well as the inputs do.

Gee, look at what this thread has become. Whooda thunk it? [*-)] Next, you're going to get some SVS owners to come over here to see the trainwreck. It's not ME who's doing anything, here. Wuzzzer is considering replacing a 16-46 with an RSW15 because he finds his sub to not be "musical" enough. The point of my post was to say that I completely understand that sentiment. Sorry that a blessed SVS has been accused of not being "musical". If you think a 16-46 is accurate at 60Hz, you're wrong. As I said, just because a subwoofer is flat with a sine wave from 100HZ down to 20Hz doesn't mean that it is accurate and won't sound like mush with music at 60Hz. Again, it is not I who I am talking about. With the crossover slope that is common on most AVRs, there is (should be) significant output within the octave above an 80Hz crossover; that's 160Hz, btw. Nothing difficult to understand, there. Yes, he boosted the gain so that the subwoofer would have some output in the upper regions of it's capablility. What is so hard to understand about that? Of course it was boomy at the low-end in that situation. He had turned the damn thing up too high. That was my point. Turning it up just to hear it with music was a stupid solution to his problem. I think this is something we agree upon, here, no? As I said, wuzzer isn't the first SVS owner I've heard complain about poor music performance. And even though it's another company, HSU, whose subs are similar to SVSs perfromance-wise, even makes a "subwoofer", the MBM-12 (mid-bass module), that's specifically designed for covering the mid-bass frequencies that these bottom-feeder subs like SVSs and HSUs have problems with. SVS's sealed SB-12+ was designed with this in mind, too. Huge, ported subs just aren't very tight in the upper ranges. Why not blame the subwoofers? Again, that wuzzzer finds that his 16-46 performs poorly with music is no surprise. Sorry, but that sub is designed mainly around the low-end effects commonly encountered in action movies. There are some subs that are designed around music performance. RELs are one example. KEF's higher end subs are another. They don't do what an SVS or HSU can do with a movie, but they perform splendidly with music. Fact is, you have to spend a WHOLE lot of money to get a sub that's flat to below 20Hz, yet can pull off a staccato bass run with no sloppiness.

You guys can debate which sub you like all you like, but I am fascinated by the above statement! Is this in comparison to the level he set for movies and explosions? If so, I would say that you would definitely hear some boom! Levels for music are typically lower than for explosions in a home theater! In fact, with a properly balanced sub level, you won't even know its there until there is actual material that extends below the reproductive limits of the rest of the system. It simply augments the frequency reproduction, it is not meant to EQ the system! If the above is the manner in which you are listening to the sub, you would want the sub that sounds better with explosions. Forget the more 'musical' (read "accurate") sub! Yes, this is how the sub was demoed to me. My point was that the sub, when adjusted (not sure whether he calibrated it or not) properly for movies, lacked output and performed poorly in the upper ranges more often encountered with music. This is why the guy turned it up for music listening. How far did he turn it up? I have no idea, but he knew where he liked it to be set for movies vs. music. I also have no idea what sort of crossover setting he used in his AVR (or his sub, if that was how his stuff was connected). Hearing this friend of a friend's system's movie performance was actually the beginning of my finally considering upgrading my old Pro-Logic receiver and buying a new matching 5.1 set of speakers and a subwoofer in the first place. Perhaps a sub that is flat to 20Hz, but doesn't perform well around the crossover setting and above is not the best sub for music. Perhaps subs that are "musical" are not flat, but instead "peaky" (as the article I posted a link to calls it) in the upper ranges. But if a subwoofer is crossed in at the typical 80Hz, you SHOULD hear it perform with music from there down to at least an octave (40Hz) below that. The low "E" string on a bass guitar is ~41Hz. There IS a lot going on in music in the octave from 40Hz to 80Hz. A subwoofer that's crossed in at 80Hz and is capable of it will also still have significant output within the octave above (160Hz) the 80Hz crossover setting, too. It doesn't surprise me at all that a 16-46 (which is tuned to 16Hz) is not very articulate within the range that's around an octave on either side of an 80Hz crossover setting. Wuzzzer's not the first person to complain about a bottom-feeding sub not being very "musical". A sub may be flat with a sine wave from 120Hz down to 20Hz but that says nothing about how articulate that sub will be at 60Hz.

If you are connecting a DVD player to your receiver via a 2-channel L/R analog connection, the LFE channel is completely dropped, anyway, so it's a non-issue. When a DVD player is connected via a digital connection to a modern AV receiver which is, in turn, connected to a subwoofer via a speaker-level connection, the AV receiver is set up as having no subwoofer and the LFE channel is then properly rerouted by the receiver to the subwoofer/front speakers via the high-level front speaker outputs. This is one of the capabilities of modern AV receivers. But this is rarely the way someone would connect a subwoofer to a modern AV receiver as the receivers have digital crossover capabilities and a subwoofer output specifically there for connecting a subwoofer.

oops

HERE is an old article that is really fond of the RSW15's performance as a musical sub. The only SVS I have heard was a 20-39 (not sure which exact model, though) and I remember being very impressed with its low-end movie performance. But when the guy demoed some music on it, he turned the sub up to get it to perform reasonably in the range more commonly encountered in music, which, of course, made it very boomy for certain passages. Personally, I love my RSW15 for music, but I use it at least 95% of the time for that. I've never been watching a movie and thought to myself "gee, I wish my sub would go lower". But, I don't usually watch very many low-end effects laden movies. I find that there is almost an inverse proportionality between the low-end subwoofer "wow!" of a movie versus its overall quality. [] I watch a movie for the emotional experience, not for its bass (although, I admit that bass CAN add to the emotional experience). And, unlike the article in that link, I've measured my subwoofer in 3 different locations in 2 different homes, and it actually measures higher at 25Hz than at 30Hz, but it falls off fairly steeply at 22Hz and precipitously at 19Hz. I think there must be a brick-wall subsonic filter @ 19Hz.

http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/km-s.aspx Weird. I guess the pictures are "classified". [*-)]

Wait. I'm confused. Are you saying that you have a DVD-A capable player yet the only DVD-A you've ever purchased was one that you picked up accidentally? [:^)] And Morph the Cat is an excellent sounding DVD-A, BTW, OP. As are Steely Dan "Two Against Nature' and "Everything Must Go". So are the other 2 Donald Fagan DVD-As, the Nightfly and Kamakiriad, although they are only 48kHz; still sound superb. And Gaucho isn't bad at all, either.

I have a sh!tload of DVD-As (and SACDs). Too many to list. As far as the speaker requirements for multichannel music versus movies, the closer all five of your speakers are to being identical the better for multichannel music. Diffusing, surround-specific speakers for the rears are a no-no as the soundtracks were mixed to be played back with direct radiating monopoles.

How about THIS. Or HERE is some that's a little bit higher quality. Honestly, if this is for in-wall that you'd like to terminate at wall plates, your best option would be to use wall plates that have an "F" type male connection on the inside and a female RCA connector on the outside. Then all you'd need is some standard female "F" terminated coax (RG59 or RG6) for the long in-wall run.

................................waiting [+o(]