chops

Just like me kinda. I have the old 1979 Klipsch wire from the squawkers sitting in the closet. I replaced them shortly after getting the 511B horns installed. I replaced them with some 16AWG lamp cord and there was a clear improvement. Dare I say a little fuller?! [8-|]

I just got in my second Behringer ECM800 mic yesterday. I had one before, but sold it since I really didn't have a need for it. But now since I'm doing all of these modifications and stuff, I figured I should have one again. Since my Rat Shack SPL meter seems to be the most accurate between 400 - 1000Hz, I chose to set the RTA level to 85dB, even to that of the SPL meter at 500Hz. The mic is connected to a dbx 760x fully balanced mic pre with +48V phantom power, then fed into my SoundBlaster Audigy2 Platinum's front control panel. From there, the stereo is fed a pure digital signal from the SPDIF output of the Audigy2. Anyway, on with the plots... Enjoy! You'll have to pan back and forth to be able to see the entire plots. Please feel free to tell me your thoughts. [] These first two are the full range of the Corns measured at 1 meter distance with Pink Noise without the sub. Each channel was measured separately with the other channel fully attenuated. All tone controls are bypassed as always. Left Ch: Right Ch: For the rest of these plots, the mic was setup at the listening position at the seated ear level. These first two plots were taken with Pink Noise with and without the subwoofer active. Both Ch's without Sub: Both Ch's with Sub: These next two plots are taken with the "Quick Sweep" function, with and without the sub active. Both Ch's without Sub: Both Ch's with Sub: These last two plots were taken with both channels driven with and without the sub. I started out at 100Hz and manually stepped down in frequency 1 click at a time until I reached 10Hz. Both Ch's without Sub: Both Ch's with Sub:

Since when do you listen to music though the power lines in your house? A standard household A/C line has 110-120 volts of juice along with up to 15 amps of current to easily push through the little amounts of resistance created by oxidation buildup on the lines to not effect anything. The effects of oxidation buildup is much greater to an audio amplifier due to the lower voltages and amperages. This statement is not only contradicting itself but not a good comparison to support the differences. First: Power amp output can be up to 50 volts AC or more, at many amps. So this is very similar to houshold current. For example, to deliver 200 watts to an 8 ohm speaker requires 40 volts at 5 amps. This is in the ball park of household current and voltages and thus we cannot simply disregard comparisons. If we were off by a factor of a hundred then OK. Second: Higher currents require better conductors and would be more affected by oxidation than lower current speaker requirements. A very low current may be unaffected by oxidation, while a higher current will. Source voltage is not a factor at all, since it is the IR loss determined by the current and resistance of the wire/interconnect that will determine the voltage drop. Terms such as "juice" and "push thru" are meaningless in a technical discussion. Furthermore, as long as the ends have good contacts, oxidation on the surface of individual strands would not affect conductivity much as long as it is not deep. If you believe that individually insulated Litz wire is good, then individually insulated by oxidation speaker wire should be good too! And of course skin effect is not significant at audio frequencies. This has been known for a hundred years and does not need to be redundantly re-proven over and over again! According to the scientific method by which our civilization survives, it would be up to cable companies to prove that skin effect is important, not the oher way around! And with that, have a good day Chops! Do audio signals behave differently thru a conductor depending what frequency they operate at? Yes. Oxidation attenuates higher frequencies. efzauner, if what I said is not true, then why does that all-time little trick of loosening and retighening all the connections on the crossover networks usually tend to open the speakers back up some? If it wasn't true, then no one would recommend doing it, and there are loads of members here on the forum who recommend doing this all the time. "This statement is not only contradicting itself but not a good comparison to support the differences." I don't think so. The day you pump 50 volts and several amps into a home audio midrange or tweeter and not end up with the voice coils landing in your lap, then I'll change my story. Until then... With you referring to 200 watts (40 volts & 5 amps) into an 8 ohm driver, that would be a woofer which would never be reproducing high frequencies to begin with. So in that respect, no, you wouldn't here the effects of oxidation. You have a good day as well, sir. []

As many times as I have posted pictures of my room, I'm sure some have noticed the laptop sitting on the coffee table in front of the highly modified Cornwalls. One of the main reason I bought the laptop was just to listen to my stereo in the "sweet spot" all the time. Just ask my bro jt1stcav... I AWAYS have my stereo on. Not to mention that I have a 30' coax cable running from the Audigy2 card in my server PC in the bedroom to my stereo, which I have total control over via "Remote Desktop" on my laptop. About 5000 cd quality MP3s and probably somewhere around 1500 various CDs, I think I have my bases covered. Oh, did I mention that later this week or early next week I'll be further modifying my Cornwalls with the addition of a pair of Altec 902-8B drivers and converting my modded Type B (now CS II) networks over to a 2-way to run the Altecs from 400Hz - 20kHz?! [H] Ah... Good times! [<)]

Since when do you listen to music though the power lines in your house? A standard household A/C line has 110-120 volts of juice along with up to 15 amps of current to easily push through the little amounts of resistance created by oxidation buildup on the lines to not effect anything. The effects of oxidation buildup is much greater to an audio amplifier due to the lower voltages and amperages. No Mike, I am not making a "personal attack" on you, just merely making a statement.

Hey Bob, if you want those Cornscalas to really sing sweetly, why not throw in some Altec mids and 811/511 horns?! LOL Just kidding of course.... []

I was going to say the same thing Dana, but didn't want to be accused of another "personal attack". LOL Anyway.... Everybody here so far has given excellent advice from all directions. I'd say definately get the networks recapped at least if nothing else. You never know, depending on your age, the condition of your hearing and musical preferences, you may think the K77 tweeters provide enough sparkle and openness with the new caps installed. However, if you do desire a little extra sparkle, I highly recommend going with BEC's CT125 "drop-in' replacement tweeters. To me, they have the same sonic signature as the K77s, just that they extend to 20kHz. Also, if you like playing your music rather loud, and have the CT125s installed, I would also recommend rolling off the top end of the squawker to about 4500Hz or so to help eliminate that "honk" at higher volumes. I am not familiar with the Khorn network design, so it may already have something similar to this done from the factory. At any rate, just sit back and enjoy your speakers for a little while before doing any major changes. Like others have said, you may like the stock sound just fine. []

Dean, I noticed that the Erse 18AWG .13mH has a DRC of .15 ohms. It's the same as the Solen, but the Solen is 16AWG. Should I even be concerned with the gauge difference? Is there a considerable "sound" difference or improvement of the Solen? The only reason I ask is because I already have an account with Parts Express and all I would have to do is hit the "GO" button. [] But for now, it looks like I'll immediately be going the 2-way route, disconnecting the entire tweeter section from the network. So completely remove (disconnect) tweeter section, leave 7uF cap bank at tap #5, remove inductor completely, and run squawker (+) to tap #2, connect 902 drivers and go, right? Boy, that sounds simple as PIE! [H]

Sorry for the late reply guys. I was a little busy on eBay... [:$] To make a long story short, I now have a need to put these questions I'm asking into action in the next few days! YES, I got the 902-8B drivers! [<)] Anyway Dean, I think if I try these 3-way, I'll just go ahead and go your way first off. Remember, my 4uF to the tweeter is (2) 2uF caps in parallel, as is the 7uF for the squawker being a 4uF + 3uF in parallel. So it would be very simple for me to just drop on 4uF and 2uF cap per driver to get the desired changes. Then all I have to buy are (2) .13mH inductors. Speaking of the inductors, I guess I would go with the Jantzen 18AWG .13mH, but it has a DCR of .16 ohm. Would I be better off going with the Erse 14AWG .15mH with a DCR of .07 ohm? Or better yet, couldn't I just leave the inductor out altogether and let it run all the way out to 20kHz? I was thinking, I remember reading in another thread that you cannot just take the tweeter out of the network without it automatically shifting all the other values around and messing up the crossover points and such. If that's the case, then what would happen if I completely disconnected the caps going to the tweeter? Wouldn't the network then essentially be a true 2-way? Wouldn't the crossover points for the K-33 and 902 stay the same? "You will do it your way first. Curiosity will finally get the best of you, and then you will try it my way. My way always sounds better.:)" <<-- LOL! I'm sure it probably is! []

Also, would this .24mH 14AWG be sufficient enough? It has the lowest DCR of the bunch at .009 ohms. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=266-310

Ok, got it! And as for the taps, I got that too. Thanks. [] And the reason for going with the 8 ohm version is because I have 2 seperate opportunities to get a really nice pair of the 8Bs at a good price, and really can't afford the $450 that GPA wants for them. It's kind of funny, because before I kept saying I wanted to buy the 16 ohm versions and everyone kept asking me "why not buy the 8 ohm ones"... Kinda damned if I do, damned if I don't sorta deal. []

Hi Dean, To start things off, I do plan on changing the whole thing out once I feel confident enough to build my own 2-way network. If possible, I'd like it to be a 3rd order design for both the K-33E and 902-8B. So just for now, I'll be running the 902 on my current networks. Please let me know if I have this straight. 1) Move from tap #5 to #2. 2) Leave 7uF cap bank as is. 3) Insert 902-8B in place of K-55V 4) Scrap .50mH inductor for .25mH inductor 5) Fire her up and let her rip. If this is correct, I should still have a crossover point of roughly 375Hz/4900Hz for the bandpass?

Excellent find Belleman! I know you say you don't have much funds right now for upgrades, but I would suggest contacting Bob not only about the tweeter, but also getting direct replacement caps for the networks. I am 99.9% sure that the caps are well out of spec by now being that they are from 1975, and they do not cost much at all and are easy as pie to replace. Just my 2 cents. [] Oh yeah, and welcome to the club! [8-|]

From what I remember in the directions from some of the pre-built 3-way crossovers I have bought from Rat Shack and Parts Express years ago is that when you drop in impedence (16 --> 8 ohms), your crossover freq also drops by half (400Hz --> 200Hz), not the other way around (400Hz --> 800Hz). Although, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's what the directions said. Of course, dropping from 16 to 8 ohms, the driver is going to receiver more power which in turn will make it louder. Also, which tap would I move to? Right now, the squawker is on tap #5, the tweeter is on #4. Taps #1 and 2 are open.

I dropped DeanG a PM about this as well, but figured it wouldn't hurt to post it here in the forum either, so here it goes... I might be getting my hands on a pair of Altec 902-8B's soon. For a short time, I will be running them 3-way in my current setup, and later on down the road possibly switching over to 2-way. Now here's the questions... Since I am running a 7uF cap bank on the squawker with the K-55 which is 16 ohms, I believe I was told it is closer to 350Hz than 400Hz. 1) NOW, if I were to drop one cap and run just the 3uF cap on the squawker, where would that put the crossover point for the K-55, around 700-800Hz? 2) If it is around 700-800Hz at 16 ohms, wouldn't putting in the 8 ohm 902 basically drop that crossover point back down between 350-400Hz, again at 8 ohms? 3) If that is correct, and I can run the 902s just like that, how could I, or would I have to attenuate the 902 by switching a tap? So what do you all think? Is this doable? Thanks in advance!

Sounds like something a girlfriend would say to a guy who she thought was going to leave her! Sounds like something I'd say back to her! LOL []

So,do you think I could slam the diaphram into the phase plug at 2 watts max output? LOL! That's what I was thinking also. Didn't I read somewhere a while back that PWK used to use Crown amps on everything? If so, it's no wonder that he blew those TAD drivers and whatever else drivers he had laying around. []

If those horns are even similar looking to these Smith horns, they are absolutely sweet looking! I'm sure they sound just as good.

Well, I tried anyway. [] I guess what I was trying to say is that the larger driver would possibly have a "fuller" sound at the same SPL/frequency than the smaller driver.

I think I see where Dana is coming from. Say you have a 5" woofer, 8" woofer and 15" woofer, all in their own properly tuned cabinets, and you put 30Hz through them at 90dB @ 1m, the 15" woofer is going to still sound bigger, more natural because it is more capable of reproducing that 30Hz at 90dB with less movement, less distortion and the full fundamentals of that frequency intact. The smaller drivers will have to move more and will not be able to acurately reproduce the fundamentals, but will produce more distortion and harmonics of the original frequency. The smaller drivers will have less "body" to them and not sound as natural.

Well, you gotta consider the source. [] My PM was from someone who only lurked and filled me in on what went on in ANOTHER audio-related forum, which eventually led to the banning of one person. You might say that some folks can make a lasting impression NO MATTER WHERE they go, or what name they choose to use. I guess Linguistic Forensics is becoming second-nature to some of us...... Double Dang! [+o(] LOL!

Yes, very nice indeed. One thing that I noticed that would kind of suck if you really wanted to try something like Bob's CT125 tweeters is that it looks like the magnet of the K77 is almost right up against the top of the cabinet. Being that the magnet on the CT125 is larger, I'm not sure if it would fit in the stock location. However, if you're keeping the LS's all original, then you wouldn't have a problem at all. [] Nice work!

Of course, you're STILL making fun of my name. (which is against forum rules, but you somehow repeatedly get away with it... imagine that) And OF COURSE, you are still taking what I said out of context. READ IT AGAIN! I did NOT call Klipsch RSW subs INFERIOR as you are referring to.

Once again, I was mining my own business, then he decided to chime in, so don't go saying crap about me picking fights with anyone. A bunch of children in the subwoofer forum, I swear... [:|] So long.

I documented that you escalate arguments for no good reason, other than a petty ego that needs plumping. Sooner, or later, the thread crumbles to a pissing contest between you and a bunch of other folks. Then the thread gets locked. You agreed with my post until someone (probably a brother) pointed out your faux pas. Par for the course. LMAO!!! Personally, I welcome your posts for the unintended humor contained in them. [] How you agree with me one minute and call me names the next, all over the same message is truly hilarious. Robin Williams; loooook out!!!!! You keep posting. We'll keep laughing. Until Amy locks up another thread. [N] Ahh, think what you want. It doesn't matter to me one bit. Ever since you joined the forum, you think you're MrRight on everything, so there's no point in even arguing with you. (beating a dead horse, blah, blah, blah) It's all mind over matter... I don't mind because you don't matter. [|-)]