TheEAR

Two f113's yes that is about enough sub for a small bedroom, or so says the green cricket man ! [:|] Get one Synergy sub it will be cleaner...or so say the big boys from the gathering. [] Congrats on the subs.

CAS , Not a music buff ! [] Ok you have your immitation fake explosions in Rambo 5, you want more realism? Go buy a few hand grenades and toss them at your subs. [] The explosions will be more bloody and have true power. []

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/8152-jl-audio-fathom-f113.html Plus subs under the Christmas tree on ... http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_4/subwoofers-12-2001.html The consistency is somewhat in line since the the HGS18 output is close to what Craig (AVS)measured with his DD18's. [H] The f113 max clean outout @ 20Hz will be higher than the RSW15's @ 20hz. Only when pushed hard the sliding high pass kicks in and we have a rolloff at 43Hz down(max output) the rolloff starts ~25Hz. Where the RSW15 starts sust south of 30Hz.The RSW15 did not even manage 100dB @ 20hz! So I do not know where you take your data? Any links? I am not partial to any company,but saying the RSW15 has higher clean output below 25Hz is pushing things. Show me the measured data. Not some data gathered by company personel who always find creative ways to make their own product "Over perform". And then in real world tests ..."Oh we do not understand we got 6dB more here and there"...[] "This sub shook the parking lot so much the seismic activity went sky high..." "Hmm at the gathering we saw our subs beat the competition" sure did,the fanboys where drunk and saw mirages. [:'(] "Our products are class leaders" Ahem yes sir " We are the champs" sure are. Ah I know what my ears like...DISTORTION! [:@]

"I think the main thing that I did not like SQ-wise was the sealed design. I suppose I am a little biased towards a good ported design or similar, so I must confess that... don't hold that one against me! " [<)] SQ wise the sealed is bad! [] You gave yourself away. BIG TIME...in overtime. A very good sealed design(the JL Audio f113 is one) is capable of stellar SQ as far as you do not push the sub into the last trenches(compression sets in...and the gremlins do the dirty work).Here any design pushed near and past its optimum operating limits will start to deteriorate. You want to hear clean,pristine...try the larger Genelec mains and two of the four driver Genelec subs...you will hear as clean as it gets.

Long time no see... To clarify any debate Klipsch RSW15 VS JL Audio f113. The Klipsch RSW15 rolls off very shrply below 25Hz,as it is tune(PR) is around that frequency,it is optimised for very high and clean SPL down where it matters most. That is 32Hz(or 31.5Hz). The displacement of the active rear driver is decent and is around half that of the f113 driver,excursion is less that half. The RSW15 matches well with even smallish sats and can be cut quite high. The JL AUdio f113 is rolled off above 70Hz and is not a good match for small sats,where you can set the crossover point at 80Hz.This sub has little kick in the upper bass.It has better extension than the RSW15 and will play loder down deep(where the RSW15 can only hint).With this sub you better have larger mains or large stand/wall mounted speakers capable of a solid 50-60Hz LF extension. In the built quality department,the JL takes it very easy here.From cabinet passing by the amp all the way to the driver. I have both and all the RSW's and RT's as well as JL Fathom's. So my view is based on hands/ears on experience. JLAudio has no upper punch so to speak, this is why some of the negatives. As it does move more air than the RSW-15(even with the help of the PR,as the PR moves ALOT when the active moves much less...read about how a active/passive system works). The people that are disapointed by the f113 have NOT heard the sub matched with proper gear the correct way. End of it. Too many newbs with long "experience" working in audio shops. The JL Audio was since surpassed by sealed subs from Paradigm and a few others.Paradigm's Servo Sig 25 bests the JL in every respect from extension to SQ to output).And beats the RSW15 with ease in output and extension. The lone 15" active has more displacement than the active/passive combined on the RSW15.And we know you cannot add the max displacement of the active and passive,as in the real world at tune the active has little displacement when the PR it at its peak. This takes nothing from the RSW15/12 and 10 these are classic Klipsch subs and great ones too.

Like The King his life was cut short.The creeps who tried to make a monster of him will haveto find other victims to sue. R.I.P. Michael Jackson

Kain. Great choice! Mark Seaton's Submersive is one heck of a deal, you get a sub that is designed by a master of the sub world, the man knows subs like very few.His designs are no nonsense and he puts money where it counts most. One of these days I may place an order for his subs and his amplified sats.A definite win win there.

Mike, The "LMS" coil on the TC2000 has one drawback...low BL. Around 10-11, you guessed it ,larger volume needed to get descent F3 in a sealed,not a biggie as almost all TC OSunds model so well in smaller than "idea" spaces. In this case for example a TC1000 12" only needs ~1.5-2cu ft to get a very good looking response cuve, the TC3000 12" with its very high BL needs a tiny volume of under 1 cu ft to work well. And the TC2000 LMS edition as I call it, 3.6-4 cu ft is the minimum in my view ,yes you can EQ more, I prefer to resort to PEQ boost as little as possible. This way both the thermal and the excusion remains in check,not talking about other issues. Final deign should be 3.5cu ft volume net per driver. Yes the major drawback with sealed is they are quite power hungry.Plus the drivers better have a healthy Xmax and high enough thermal to make the cut. Surprisingly even the low cost Mach 5 MJ18 with a mere 12mm Xmax one way can satisfy with serious deep bass.It needs sone PEQ to work well as its Fs is quite high due to the light weight moving assembly and stiff suspension.

DrWHO, Come close to what exactly, the 126dB at 16Hz at listening position(in this case 3 Meters from the closest driver). That figure is far from max output,my sub system can top 140dB at this frequency at listening position,on paper with room to spare(both from Xmax and thermal). If you have plans to build the said sub,please contact me as I have now the time to build a more complex box for a horn sub.And will be happy to buy the driver you recomend and other hardware. You know all these subs are to satisfy a simple need to try drivers.

All at the same time ?..NO I did just that to measure over 126dB @ 16Hz at listening position,the system was not even trying. There is not two commercial subs sold that can reproduce the deepest notes with such ease at this high of a volume. This sub setup has vitually no limitations for HT or music ...or reproducing ULF recorded to show off sub systems.

Here part of my collection O subs.

A sub from me for $100! [] Let me look in my basement locker and maybe I can find an old Altec Lansing multimedia "sub." []

I will build a cabinet with two 3.5cu ft chambers,each driver will be powered by one QSC RMX4050 channel.

Painting speakers to blend in ! [:|] Who had this idea? Pass me a 2x4 and let me drive a few long rusty nails in it. NEVER paint speakers to blend in,unless you know the resale value will drop like a stone or you are a master at painting and do a Wilson like finish...on a Wilson. You better make DIY cabinets of the same volume and paint these. Someone tries to paint my rosewood Dynes or cherry Klipsch I make sure they hit the lane hard.

The Submersive will have higher SPL 35Hz on up,two 15's VS one 13". Below tune(of the Ultra)the Submersive takes a good lead. I experimented with sealed VS ported in the real world and in simulation so many times I know multiples of a great sealed sub are my final choice. As I get top SQ(no port distortions/resonances to take into account),extreme LF extension down to near DC. The lack of output of a sealed sub is a NON issue with today's drivers and amps.

Yes I would pick a SubMersive over a PB13 Ultra for my setups(rooms),as I have ample gain down deep and I value extension over a bit of extra output I may never use ...or get close to using. The SubMersive having two 15" drivers ,each driver moves less than a single 13" of the Ultra,it is around tune the Ultra driver will move less. I suspect the difference in output across the range is quite similar,2-3 dB from eachother.Nothing major.

Class D is efficient(dpower raw to output wise), the loss is quite low(compared to class A/B or class A). Unlike class A amplification that has a good portion of the power draw lost in HEAT. Class A/B works in class A at low output levels and switches to class B at higher output levels.

I am sellin by wall O TC Sounds subs, QSC PLX/PL380 and iTech powered...TOO POWERFUL ...building falling apart. [] Oh the all important gain knob! Found it so I am... NOT selling. []

Capacitors are a reserve bank,the greater the capacitance the more reserve you have. It is very realistic to produce bursts in the 3-4KW range from a 15AMP line. Sustained high level signals are used for torture testing and most amps will even fail trying to meet spec. You will only see/hear limitations of sustained sine waves reproduced at high output. Who listens to sine waves or tests tones non stop? Also we are not driving a bank of resistors to the breaking point here. A 15AMP line will feed even power hungry and inefficient JL Audio Fathom f113. Two such subs on one 15AMP line...I would use caution.Two RT-12d's on one 15AMP line...ha no problem conect even three. When using several power amps subs from one line,make sure to power them in sequence. As turning all the units ON will demand an inrush of current far greater than the single 15AMP line can provide. I managed to run just for kicks four QSC PLX2502 to 3602 amps,two PL380's and two iTech 6000 on one 15AMP line. In standby the demand was ~9AMPS! I switched one after the other in three second intervals,as the iTech and PL380's suck current into the caps like ShopVacs suck saw dust.

The SubMersive winns when the deepest bass is king,the Ultra and Conquest are ported and roll of below tune.The SubMersive does not have as much max output as the ported 18-30Hz but is is very solid output and extension the ported cannot match.Under 16Hz the SubMersive like any well designed sealed(not bent on max output with agressive filters) will catch up and best the ported with ease. The Ultra in the deepest extenion mode is UNDERPORTED,one port is NOT enough.The port noise will become aparent. The Ultra should be used with all three ports open.

Dynaudio Confidence C4, keep the others. Dynaudio designs and manufactures what I think are among the most musical speakers at any price. I have the Contour 3.3,S.3.4,S5.4 and a few others. I have heard,tested the C4's compared with Revel,PMC,Wilson,Klipsch,B&W 801,Thiel 3.6,Paradigm Signature series and while the competition is very good.The C4 has an absolute natural presentation,make sure you have proper amplification...the SimAudio MOON W8 is the perfect match.

The Paradigm PS series is one note band pass, good for HT and poor with music. The Klipsch should get the easy win here. Back in the day when the PS-800 came out I purchased this "sub" as I had little extra cash for a sub. It did well for ...explosions.The PS lineup cannot qualify as articulate(defined) or musical.The PS design is good(accurate) only in a very very narrow passband.Should be cut no higher than 50-60Hz,even then it fares poorly when pitted VS a good quality sealed or classic ported sub.

Interesting Cables "add" the least to the final result in the sound system. Buy a quality ,well shielded 1M interconect and compare it with the Ubber brand that sells 100X the price. Guess what,you will hear 99.9% Placebo increase! Yes you can measure changes,do these changes impact the end result(what we hear and can hear above all)to the extens to justify the price? NO I have speaker cables ranging from the $1.50/ft 10GA copper wire to Monster Sigma/Cardas Golden Cross and other quite costly speaker wires. Do I hear the claimed "gains in resolution"...LOL NOPE. The Placebo ...YES. I use mostly solid state power amps capable of driving difficult loads,the cable change effects are minimal at best. To say quality cables do not "add" anything is false, but the gains are too often minute. And if we hear (not the Placebo here) the "increased" detail it will be more to the fact now we pay more attention...to what we listen. The Placebo is still king.

Nice score,these do quite well for HT,the lower extension limit being around 30Hz. They pack a punch,as shame Klipsch discontinued them and ...they were not sold in Canada.

Rockets, We listen to test tones,they are more musical than today's top 40 Silicone Spears and all the fifi boys bands combined! [] The RT-12d is a very good sub,if it was near a "POS" I would not even bother. In fact the whole RSW and RT line are good subs. Not deep enough for what? Pipe organ reproduction for one,the rest. They do very well. Today you will see a sea of little Me Too's who brag how there is something at 6Hz in some POS movie! They love to post charts, charts that are IM(very very humble)O a grand waste of space in cyberspace.These people need to be sent to the front lines to get a dose of what loud is. []