ClaudeJ1

See my Avatar. The FH-1 rolls off at 100 Hz. The reason I like the EVM 15L woofer is that is has a much better response than the Klispch woofers in the 400-500 Hz. range to mate up with treble horns and drivers. Since you are going 2-way, all of the drivers that can be Shelving EQ'd to eliminate a tweeter will only get to 500 Hz., so trust me, the EVM is the mbest woofer. I have modeled many different woofers in the FH-1 model in Hornresp, and it is the best. Like the La Scala and Belle, the FH-1 is a short horn. Klipsch uses a large back chamber volume and a low resonance woofer to try and get some measure of extra direct radiator bass couple with room gain. But we all know these short horns are ALL bass shy below 90-100 Hz. so they really DO need a sub. You can build the tapped horn I built with a JBL 12" car woofer for about $160 using MDF instead of plywood. The problem with using an EVM 15L is that you have to have about 9 db of boost at 60 Hz. to get it down there, which, then it's useable to 50 hz. and still sounds good on most music. Since I have experienced flat, bottomless, dynamic bass with my setup I'm never going back. I will always have horn sub.

It's basically 2x my Avatar with a sub standing next to the left channel. It ain't pretty and it's temporary, since I'm moving in 2 weeks. But if y'all insist, I'll see what I can do.

I have designed a corner bass horn, in Hornresp, that used the core of an MWM with a smaller back chamber to accomodate EVM 15L woofers. It will be a 4 1/2 ft. long horn (vs. 6 ft. for a true MWMs)flat from 60 hz. to behond 300 Hz. with only ONE fold. I will post plans when they are done. I wanted to do a straight axis version, but it would stick out over 7 feet from the corner, which is impractical. This horn will NOT need any PEQ, unlike my existing FH-1 bass horns. The build is on my to do list, but what I have now with DCX2496 PEQ sounds grea I have tamed the "cheapScalaBelles" Peavey FH-1 bins with a 9 db PEQ boost at 61 Hz and a 3 db PEQ cut at 154 hz. using a Behringer DCX 2496 on the woofer section only. The 24 db/octave Linkwitz-Riley filter is set from 45 to 323 hz.. This feeds a cheap 6 WATTS per channel chip amp from Parts Express. I measure about 25 Milliwatts of power at 85 db in my "sweet spot." So I have about 24 db of headroom. My Onkyo AVR's Audyssey Multi EQ agrees with my setting by automatically choosing a 60 Hz. crossover to the Tapped Horn Sub in the corner (similar to a Danley DTS-20). That sucker does a clean 15-60 Hz. on music (1/4 Watt) and movies (200 Watts available). I also use the "DOUBLE BASS" setting on my AVR after Audyssey does it's thing. This flattens out the bass overall by allowing the R and L front channels to go full range, since they are already bandpass filtered by the DCX. I measured response as well as incredible bass power and detail is clearly audible on all recordings.

See Avatar. So can we talk about ridiculously LOW distortion and lifelike TRANSIENT response and edge definition? You bet. So from 4Khz. on up I have the best Super Tweeter and a QSC "mini me" horn to match the K-402/K-1133 combo. Klipsch's K69/K-510 in the KPT Jubillee 535, according to Roy, who designed it, is used to PUNCH through a projection screen in a Theater installation and is way overkill for home and too expensive for me anyhow. The B&C DE-250 (1 inch throat) is good from 800 Hz. to 18 Khz and is used from 1 Khz. on up by Tom Danley as well as Dr. Earl Geddes on his Summas. Since I'm not using the lower 2 octaves, it too provides crisp harmonics and cymbals just like live ones, with ridiculously low distortion. After hearing and measuring Jubilees and their clones, and over 30 years of owning Khorns, I know what corner horns sound like. The best bass I ever had was from the MWM bins, and I heard those with K-402's next to 2-way Jubilees. The MWM bass was more authoritative. I also heard PEQ's LaScala bass with the K-402 and they did a respectable job. IN the range of 60-300 Hz., I prefer bass horns with FEWER FOLDS for greater clarity and fewer peaks and dips.

The K402 is the "heart" of the system. PWK was right when he said the "midrange is where we live." This means we can spot goodness AND anomalies there easier than the other ranges. Roy Delgado's K-402 (modified Tractrix design) is the best I've heard from 300Hz. on up. Close second would be JBL2060A and EV 9060 for the 90x40 dispersion angle, but those are limited to 500 Hz. In fact, the JBL rolls at 700, even though it's huge. It took a while to find some very rare used 402's, and the reason I got them at a reasonble price was they had broken corners, which I epoxied back. When I heard the 3-way KPT Jubilee 535 (Klipsch made K-1133 driver on 402 with K-510/K-69 tweeter) vs. the 2-way Jubilee (PEQ'd K-69 driver on K-402) I preferred the midrange clarity of the lower Xover point (400 vs. 500 repectively). When I got mine and measured them, I found that the K-1133 (designed to be a driver for 3-way vs. a K-1132, which is for 2-way (similar to JBL, EV, etc. they look similar) on the K402 was reasonable flat down to below 300 Hz., but pretty much tanked at 4 Khz. JBL 2446 and EV DH1A drivers roll at about 450 but go up to 15Khz with Shelving EQ. So the K-1133 behaves like a phenolic driver (favoring the low end) with the benefits of stiffness and low mass of titanium with a mylar suspension. Now you may think I'm pushing it by crossing that low. However, when you consider that it has a about a 110 db/Watt efficiency and I listen to music at 80-85 db or less 11 feet away from the driver, it only takes 10 Milliwatts of power to do this. It's like having a 12 cylinder Lambhorghini that you never have to take out of 1st gear, but there are 5 more if you need them, LOL.

Do I have to build them in order to appreciate them? Why the challenging tone? I said that they sound really good. Not knowing your experiences I thought you might have built some. Didn't mean to sound like you think it did. You appeared to be the rightful challenger on this thread, not me. Specifically, which ones sound good to you?

While I agree with your subjective assessment of tapped horns, my pedantic side forces me to point out that a tapped horn is not so much a horn as a variant on the tapered quarter-wave pipe (TQWP) concept. In fact, tapped horn, TQWP, "transmission line", "acoustic labyrinth", "Transflex", and "Air Coupler" are all variations on the same theme. And, properly executed, they sound really good, too. Have you built any of these you speak of, Mr. Edgar? Danley is the most prolific new speaker designer out there and there's a reason why his sub woofers all Tapped Horns and blow away all others. My friend built 3 spuds of his home HT and they will separate the flesh from your bones on the right material. My one tapped horn sounds subterranean and works seamlessly for music or movies. Had twin VMPS large subs with lots and lots of cones. No comparison to a single LAB 12 in my tapped horn, which can be built with only 2 sheets of plywood cut into a mere 11 pieces.

It's all now in a new place, huge room, it dwarfs what you heard before. My "coffee table" is now standing up in a corner of an 18x24 loft inside of an 18x45 foot room. It goes to 15 Hz. easily. Anyone who has hear this latest setup, same speakers, new room, has commented on the definition, TRANSIENT response, depth, etc. of the bass and the total lack of boominess.

If a cone moves, it produces distortion. If you want to REDUCE cone movement, put a HORN on it. Power input will go down, power output will go UP, distortion will go DOWN more than the power input does (very cool). Horns will play louder and more like live music because the cones don't have to move as much, so they ACCELERATE faster for more lifelike TRANSIENT response. The greatest movement in any loudspeaker regardless of size or brand is in the woofer section. The least amount of of movement is in the tweeter section. Where is the horn needed most? In the Woofer section, of course, yet this is the LAST place people put a horn. Why? SIZE and COST. But for those who don't wish to compromise, like me, I insist on ALL HORNS in the entire sytem, except for surrounds because they are down so far in output. This is why I use Tapped Horn Subs (18 to 24 feet long), which will give the greatest bass output into the TEENS in the smallest cabinet possible working in concert with ROOM GAIN. Since I was just a kid out of college, I have owned Klipschorns with a LaScala in the middle using PWK's resistor box. I know this for sure because I went to his house and saw/heard for myself. I had the exact same system that PWK had, for 30 years. I spent the last 5 years doing about 10 iterations of horns going from 5-way to 4-way (including the TH sub in this statement). My whole system is based on the K-402 with the Klipsch 1133 driver, found in over 50% of newer theaters around the world. There's a reason for this. So if that setup produces the lowest distortion possible for a great big room like a theater with hundreds of sears, imagine what the same horns do in your home? Talk about ridiculously LOW DISTORTION using only MILLIWATTS from little CHIP amps of about 6 Watts per channel (except for the subs), where one can measure between 0.010-0.025 W in the main channels and 0.25 (1/4 watt) in the woofers for normal listning with maybe 10X that for "cranked up demo mode." Spoiled ROTTEN you say? You are darn RIGHT!

I agree. My 12" Lab driver in the 18 foot horn goes down below 15 Hz. My FH-1's roll off at 100 Hz. without EQ and they have 15" woofers in the 2.8 foot horn. Dtel built a some SPUD Tapped Horn subs with twin 8" Subwoofer in them and they keep up with twin 15" K-33's per channel in MWM bins.

Mini MWMs? Corner MWMs? Umgawakickbootie Woofer Section.

You only need one per side anyhow with a 15". I have said many times in the past that having a double woofer stack is way overkill for home use, but it does look more impressive, LOL. The extra height is not justified for the extra 3-6db output. I have had it both ways for a few years, and prefer the single bin per side. Again, ears and measurements confirm my vote for the single. Just a couple of watts thought these things will drive you right out of the room. Let me remind you that my design is NOT a sub woofer, but a woofer/midbass. You should use a sub below about 50-60 Hz., preferably a tapped horn like mine or two. That would be a better place to put your money, your time an your lumber. Two TH subs would be ideal, placed in different places in the room (or underneath each MWM). Not for more output, but for more even distribution of the room modes down to 16Hz..

Yep. You got it. Easy build and performance WAY superior to Belle. I have the data to back this up. Plus, since I listen to only about 80db at my sweet spot most times, my hearing is and should be very good for a long time. One more thing. You can shorten woofer back chamber by about 4" max since the EVM-15L works better with a smaller chamber than a K33 0r K43. It won'd hurt too much if you leave it as the original MWMs volume, it's up to you in case you want to use a Klipsch woofer in the future. The front part of the woofer throat/short horn section remains the same, of course.

Yes. Just move the box against your steel ruler, where the knife blade is, and think about laying a 1/2 of 1/2 sheet of plywood, cut diagonally, on top. this will get you better performance than a Belle. Follow my black drawing on Page 1. I will post dimensions when I have them.

I would say it compares favorably. The EVM 15 has higher frequency response than a K-43, but it goes though 3 folds instead of just 2 for the MWM. Similar cutoff frequency, and big horn either way. TL4025 would be as close as you can get to an MWM I guess. But I still believe simpler build, less folds, is better IMHO. So I would still go with Klipsch because you cans still put an EV woofer in it.

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/storage/6/1905579/CJstack1010.jpg This is one of my versions. By going to FH-1 AND, more importantly, the EVM 15L which has a much better response than any of the MWM drivers in the 100-400 hz. range. I and added the K402, which gets to 300 Hz easily with the K-1133 driver I dropped the stack down, but I had the EQ the FH-1 like I would a LaScala at the lower end. This allowed me to sell the excellent Peavey MB-1 Midbass to another forum member with more space. Now that I have space again, I want MWM bass back so I will build my corner version, which is about 3/4 size.

It's been a standard test for the MWM for years, but you have to play it "stupid loud" to do it. Maybe digital cannons? K33 will handle it fine.

Roy is definitely a prolific horn designer of the highers order. The Jubille behaves like a LaScala out of a corner, and like a Khorn in a corner, except with higher output between 60-200 hz.. In the same way that Gary Gillum did much of the grunt work on the MWM, Roy did the same with the Jubilee. His idea of splaying the twin horn mouths inward is what gave the Jubilee the ability to go over 1Khz. and made possible a passive 2-way at 800 hz. with a 1.5" driver on a small horn. I still like his amazing K-402 best whether it's 2-way at 500 Hz Xover, 3-way at 400 Hz. Xover, or sitting on top of an MWM stack!!

Not at all. Most of us go thru life in the - should have, would have, could have group. Its good to know there is a - did it, done it group!! chris What Dtel forgot to mention was that Mrs. Dtel and daughter were the fuel for him building these. How cool is it when the ladies of the house want Daddy to build a stack of MWMs woofers for the living room! Hats off to the ladies who, I'm sure, had the same look on their face as I did upon hearing the MWM for the first time! It's pretty rare in the audio world to have that kind of female support for the big horns, especially those that use so much corner space in a house vs. a Jubille or Khorn bin.

This is exactly what Klipsch did originally. Gary Gillum told me that Paul wanted to try just the double core units (my name for it) alone for PA with mutual coupling and stakcing the short units together and it didn't work. They tried firing it into a corner, it didn't work. When it was firing into the corner, they took a sheet of plywood and laid it on top, and VOILA, the thing pegged the meter, so to speak. So yes, it will work that way, you just have to put sheet of plywood on top of it, which is how they arrived at the MWM originally! Paul wanted a bass horn that was easier to build than a Khorn and they ended making (arguably) the best horn woofer they ever made and it didn't need a corner anymore for PA or theater applications. Gary Gillum left Klipsch and built lots of MWM bins for John Allen's HPS-4000 systems.Gary told me that when they set up the MWM at shows, it was deemed the best sounding bass anyone had ever heard. He still claims this is the case as of 4 years ago when I spoke to him. I'm essentially going to do the same thing, except, my cutoof frequency will be, by design, 20 Hz. higher ( 4.5 foot horn instead of 6 for the MWMs) I have the benefit of modeling it in Hornresp software first. Save time, money, and sawdust! Plus, if I ever want to keep the core, and make a full blown MWMs, I will have that option in the future. Since Klipsch no longer makes MWMs units, you have to find used ones (very rare) or make your own, as many on this board have done.

I spoke at length with Gary Gillum, the co-patent holder of the MWM, former Chief Engineer with Klipsch. He told me they developed the original MWM was a double bin, USING K-33 Woofers. The reason they had Eminence do a K-43 for power handling and greater output because people were frying K-33's, even then, people still managed to fry K-43's because they used high amp fuses and the woofers would blow to protect the fuse, LOL. They later split the bin in half and named it the MWMs (for single) because the roadies all bitched about how heavy it was (need 4 people to carry. Plus it woudn't fit though doorways narrower than 36" at small clubs. Whereas, two people can carry an MWMs. As to the woofer impedance, even the original double and current production units (now used in only permanent installations, so no singles required) use separate connectors and fuses for each driver. Also, all pro amps can easily handle 2 ohm loads if the modern K-43's are in parallel. When I had MWMs, I had both K-33 and K-43 woofers. The K-43 had slightly strong highs (higher BL product) while the K-33 went lower and had slightly stronger lows (lower BL product). Which is "better" depends on your application. If you use a midbass horn, like Mark does, the K-33 is better IMHO. But for PA applications, the K-43 is the one. For home use, the K-33 is the better cheaper choice and Bob Crites drivers woofers well also. They are sonically indistinguishable from a K-33 in an MWM bin.

LOL. Thanks Bob, that is hilarious.

From 40hz down, but if I shut everything off the sub is not doing a terrible lot really, to me with a little volume it not a necessity, I listen sometimes without it just to compare, also depends on the music. There are very few times where music contains notes below 40 Hz, since a low E string on a 4 string bass is 41 Hz. An MWMs is a 6 foot long horn and it makes it down there pretty well. A 5 string bass will hit 31 Hz. but most of the notes are on the other strings. Pipe Organ and synthesized bass is another matter altogether, but again, most music doesn't get that low. The main reason I use a sub is for movies, but I discovered that I can make a smaller horn to go to 60 hz. instead of 40, so it's about balance. For music, the MWMs was the best Sounding bass I've ever owned, and I lived with Klipshorns for 30 years. Jubilees come in second place for me, but they can look nice in a corner. Kinda wish I had them back now that I have the room for them again, but I wanna try a shorter/corner version of the MWM. I will build the center section so that I can make an MWMs out of it if the corner one doesn't work out. Pretty much everything below 40 hz. you feel rather than hear. Had 6 foot MWMs with all kinds of woofers in them, never an EVM 15L. LaScalas and FH-1's get to 100 Hz. then roll off. so in my situation going from a 2.75 foot horn to a 4. 75 foot horn will get me what I need without PEQ, hopefully. It's just lumber, sawdust, a little bit of steel and glue after all. For me, the simpler the horn, the better. For build and for sound. We shall see.

OK, I just modeled the MWM bin vs. the EV one. They are very similar in length/cutoff frequeny about 45 hz. modeled into 1 Pi space, but the MWM has slightly more bass output in the 40-60 hz. region. The EVM 15L models better than than JC's model with the K-43 (same MWM bin data interpretation, different drivers) in terms of higher frequency output, but the K-43 has more oomph with it's peak at 55 Hz.. I owned MWM's and they definitely had that peak in my basement room at the time I owned them. Kind of like a low disco bass boost built right in. LOL. Remember, the best sounding bass doesn't always measure flat, especially if you look at the ISO equal loudness curves where bass levels must increase substantially below 100 Hz. with 20 db or so higher output around 20 hz., so, it looks like a Factory Klipsch MWM bin would have that built in and would only need subs below about 40-45 Hz. Just so happens my Tapped Horn sub behaves likes the ISO curve with rising response below 60 hz. in my new room and it never sounds too bassy at all. My FH-1 is about a 3-foot horn and I'm building a 41/2 foot horn. Halfway between it and an MWM................with less folds of either. Trying to avoid' "W" bins from now on.

The EV is, I think 16 pieces of wood vs. only 12 for an MWM and slightly more complex to build. The sound path has an extra fold and looks slightly longer, so perhaps a slightly lower cutoff frequency. But I"m sure the higher frequencies would be a bit more ragged because of the extra fold. The EVM 15L is flatter and has higher frequency extension when modeled in an MWM single bin, so I suspect perfomance would be similar in the EV horn, It's also an extra 3 cubic feet of space or so, so the MWM is smaller by a smidge. I started to do a straight axis MWMs here: http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/170741.aspx and decided that I wanted to use the corner space being wasted behind my FH-1's. Seems that in the late 70's and 80's, all the major speaker companies were making similar bass horns. Peavey had their "Project 1" bass horn with double 15's similar to Klipsch and EV's. I'm sure there were others I don't know about (Community?). I may model this TL4025 in Hornresp just for fun, but I'm still planning on building my adaptation of the MWMs bin..........much simplified.