Chris A

One of the major themes on this forum is "how do I integrate those big Klipsch speakers into my room". As I was watching a special on F.L. Wright (i.e., S.C. Johnson building, Fallingwater, the Guggenheim, Taliesin East and West, etc.) I started thinking about how it might be possible to better integrate the design of PWK's speaker designs into either a two-channel or a "X.1" HT design. I see that many folks build separate HTs, but I'm not sure that is the answer I would choose, since this is very wasteful of space that could be used for other purposes. For instance, an approach might be to build corner bookshelves/floorstanding speakers (such as CWs and Heresy's), referring to the picture enclosed, but with speakers integrated into the corners instead on stands in the room. I'm thinking about speakers, cabling, electronics racks, and CD/DVD/vinyl racks. In particular, I'm thinking about the larger speakers such as Khorns or Jubs but I'm not trying to limit discussion to just to those types. Note: I'm not talking about turning the whole wall into a horn, etc. I'm talking about more realistic approaches. Any thoughts or pictures? Chris

The HT preamp that I just bought is driving two Crown XTi's, each of which is biamping one Jubilee, doing driver delay, active crossover (48 db/octave) and doing Roy D's anechoic EQ settings. The other channels out of the HT preamp are driving a "6 channel input" off of my old HT receiver, i.e., I'm just using the amplifiers in the old receiver to drive the surrounds and center. Setup is simple. Additionally, my HT preamp has an analog "bypass" capability if I'm providing analog inputs from my TT, etc. This eliminates any surround sound decoding circuitry inside the HT Preamp and goes directly to the L-R channel outputs-- a "clean signal path". Chris

Richard,I'm assuming that you are getting the answers you asked for, but I have a really stupid one: what is the reason to replace the HT preamp/amplifiers for two-channel operation? This apparently assumes that HT preamp/amps are somehow "defective" for two-channel operation. Is this valid? Thanks (in advance), Chris

Thanks Bill. The local live music here scene "isn't" (live, that is) even though the city has >1/3 million people living in it (and no public transportation--but we're going to have a new Cowboys stadium to kill for). Not that I'm about to loan out my Jubs for civic duty but it fires the imagination to think about supporting live entertainment, especially when there is such a supply of real good UNT lab band students (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_O%27Clock_Lab_Band) to practice their trade, e.g., Norah Jones passed through their doors for a while. Chris

Good to know that the LED indicators are not "mission critical" accessories on these amps. I remember that when I programmed each XTi, the first thing I had to do was to update the firmware operating system using the USB and the application I mentioned above. It only took a few seconds once everything was hooked up with the application installed and running on a laptop/desktop PC. Note that I just bought my XTis less than a month ago and they already had OS updates from Crown available. Not that I'm saying that the LED problem is software- or firmware-related but it doesn't cost anything but a little time to hook them up to your computer to update, assuming you have USB and a high-speed connection to download the application. Heck, there are neat things that you can program on the XTis even if you are using them in stereo mode. If you find the core issue on the LED thing, I'd like to know. Regards and good vibs, Chris

Interesting. My units (two XTi-1000s in bi-amp mode each driving one Jubilee two-way speaker) only indicate left channel LEDs. However, initially I had them in "DSP-off" mode when I set things up. In that mode, I recall seeing both channel LEDs indicating as you would expect them to. I would agree that a quick call to Crown support may be the best solution, even if you risk being told to "read the manual". I don't see anything in my manual that would explain your XTi behavior. The only other source to try before calling them is to load Harman Kardon's "System Architect" software (a free 100 MByte download) and look at their help files. Their application seems to have a bit more information encoded into their online help. Regards, Chris

Bill,How do you set up your Jubs outside, e.g., do you use a mixer at your restaurant? What kind of amps? How do you weatherproof your electronics, or do you keep them inside? Chris

Scott, Are you operating these in a mode other than "Stereo", e.g., are you operating in crossover mode ("XOVER")? Chris

What music do you use to show off your Jubs or other Klipsch floorstanding? Chris

You need to put those comments in context, ie the Jubilee Never Went Into Production for Klipsch in a Home Version. It has no official components, measurements, specs, design, materials, voicing, etc etc because nothing was ever finalized. That is what was meant by that, and he's right. Let's not get into the millionth argument about this product, please. Exactly ZERO people would know for absolute certain what PWK would think. Reminds me of a quote from Pride and Prejudice: "...Madam, you have a very small garden..."

Bill, This sounds like the K-402 horn or the K-69 driver is a dramatic improvement over the two-horn upper drivers in your other systems. Maybe the Controlled Directivity (CD) K-402 crossing at ~500 Hz (since it's horizontal and vertical mouth dimensions can maintain CD down to this frequency) IS the big story here. This is a low enough frequency where the ear begins to not be sensitive to directionality, where the distance between the ears is much less than one wavelength. Correcting for driver delay is probably a big factor, too. Anyone know how phased-array radars work? I.e., Aegis SPY, PATRIOT, most aircraft-mounted radars, etc. Chris

You're heading into water over my head...(this is MAS territory?) (I hope not...) I will say this again... my Khorns sounded better when I was standing something like 30' away from them (never really measured the distance) than they did when I was in the open ended room with them (as they fired from the corner into the open end, opening up to foyer and dining room) (Yes, agreed.) The Jubilees simply do NOT have this difference in sound and the room has not changed, so it's GOTTA be the speaker somehow? (my opinion) (Also agreed.) Faced with that and Roy's talk of bubbles... mixed in with Mike explaining some of the benefits of 2 way over 3 way, I came to believe that the melding of the sound so much closer to the speaker themselves had to do with them being 2 way verses the 3 way Khorns I had. Maybe some time alignment of the drivers has something to do with that also? (hadn't thought of that until you mentioned it) (bubbles maybe are useful concepts for horn speaker theory, but I'm thinking more about diffraction issues or time-of-arrival issues here - you know, remember your high school science labs.) Guess we're both, waiting to exhale... ( I think that we're both in violent agreement...) I think maybe Roy needs to conduct a class "Bubbles 101" or "Bubbles for dummies" (or just point to something written on the subject of convergence...)

Is this perhaps an actual, technical term? I've tried to describe in the past how my Khorns sounded noticably better from say 30' away and the Jubilees sound just as good "up close" (probably me standing at 10') as they do from the same 30' I referenced with the Khorns. I've thus far, attributed it to them being 2 way and the sound coming together faster/closer. Either way, I was initially let down that they didn't sound "better" at 30', then I realized it's a GOOD thing that this difference isn't there. (cause they have this 'better sound' at 10') Same thing? Different? Coytee, One of the reasons why I asked the questions I did was that I am somewhat unsure of the properties of "speaker convergence" without first talking about room acoustics issues. You might ask why the La Scala and Heresy convergence distance is so long, but that the Jubs are much shorter (unless driver phase correction/delay is the answer to the question). They (La Scalas and Heresy's) don't look taller than Jubs; in fact they're not taller, they're shorter. I think first-bounce areas around the speaker have such a great effect on the perception of convergence in any real room using any real source material other than impulsive ones that the concept is more than a little muddy in practice. If you throw in the fact that the ear begins to not distinguish directionality below about 500 Hz and many speakers lose directionality at the frequency decreases below 500 Hz, then it really gets complicated (including Haas effects). Driver delay may affect the answer also, assuming good polars of the speaker system drivers. I really would like to know the source of this idea (i.e., "convergence") and where I can read more about it. I know that there is some sort of convergence that must be present in any non-coaxial multiple-driver loudspeaker system, but I've not seen the term used in context of what Mike B stated above. My response was an attempt to get onboard with this idea. (Breathlessly waiting for an answer), Chris

Mike,Where did you get this info? What assumptions? I used my ears? Actually, if you want to calculate it...the convergence point is where the polars of the bass bin and the HF section fully overlap. Because the K402 is truly a constant directivity design, and the polars are closely matched at the crossover frequency, the overlap point is going to happen very near the point calculated by using the nominal coverage angles (aka, 90x60 degrees). So from the center of the K402, draw a line that falls at 30 degrees until it intersects with a line rising at about 20 degrees from the bassbin (the bassbin beams a bit more than the 402)...I think you end up about 6 feet away or so. WIth the Khorn, the polar response of the individual drive sections are changing quite a bit...especially with the bassbin and the top end of the squawker (since it's using collapsed vertical polars to extend its high frequencies). With this in mind, the true convergance point is going to be further away than the nominal advertised polars because you're going to have narrow mismatched polars in the critical crossover bands. Saying it this way makes it sound really negative which isn't really my intention...PWK was thinking about polars with the Khorn too (in fact, he puts it as #3 more important over #4 the on-axis frequency response) You gotta be like 10 feet away with the Heresy and about 15 feet away with the lascala. If you ever get the chance, play some music on some speakers outdoors and start walking away from them...there will be a very well defined point where the sound just gels together. The same physics apply in a room, but usually you've got so many reflections that it totally masks whether or not the direct sound from the speaker has converged or not. And if you're feeling really lazy, just measure the distance between the centers of each of the drivers and then multiply by 10...it seems to yield a ballpark number that coincides with typical speaker dispersion patterns. (It makes sense that taller speakers will require longer distances to converge). Mike, I think I get what you are saying. You are talking about vertical convergence due to driver/horn vertical separation. I think that you are apparently assuming that the vertical coverage angles of the Jub horn/driver combination is based on geometrical coverage angles at frequencies above the fc of the horns in the vertical dimension of the horn. For direct radiators, etc., the horizontal and vertical coverage responses are more cardioid and otherwise a strong function of frequency. I believe you are implying that the off-axis response of the vertically separated driver/horn or direct radiator (whatever the case may be) must be relatively balanced in amplitude across the listening spectrum to achieve "convergence". Is all this tracking with your explanation above? I do hear some sort of "convergence" as I walk toward my speakers, although I find that when I'm on axis of the K-402, I always seem to feel that I'm not in the convergence zone, alluding to Geddes's white paper posted under http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/44621/1000333.aspx#1000333 where he recommends NOT being on axis above 500 Hz. As I have stated, I haven't tilted my K-402 horns down from the factory-supplied positions. I found that the minimum "convergence" distance apparently changed when I inserted bass traps into my room--it seemed to decrease but I may be sensitive to the relative tonal balance due the mid-to-upper bass (100-300 Hz) room modes with corner-mounted speakers. Still tracking? Chris

My opinion: yes, def.

Mike,Where did you get this info? What assumptions?

Wow.

Based on my setup and the pleasant experiences I've recently had, I would agree. I assume that your ceiling is flat(?).Chris

[Just remember that I hesitated to reply based on my regard for your bank account (or future lack thereof)]--I remember comments on one of these threads about "How big of a room do I need for Khorns?". I also recall the consensus was that they (Khorns) would sound very good in just about any room. I suppose that when the room gets small enough that you're left and right ears are each inside the mouth of a K-402 horn, then that room might be a little too small... One could staple the bass traps to the ceiling, assuming that you wouldn't bang your head on them when playing Guitar Hero. [H] Chris

1) ...As far as amps, I feel there is absolutely an audible difference when different amps are being used, but the magnitude of that difference is much smaller compared to the magnitude of difference imparted by the speakers themselves...it seems to me that the differences between amps become less dramatic when the quality of the speakers increase..I hear bigger differences between amps on the Khorns than I do on the Jubilees... 2) ...The XTi's also offer 48dB/octave which surprisingly sounds a lot cleaner than the 24dB/octave offered by the EV Dx38. The steeper slopes clear up the depth of the soundstage and help isolate the instruments from each other - in other words, less blurring and it's easier to concentrate on the individual parts in the music... 3) ...You could throw the best amp(s) with the best crossovers at the Khorn, but it'll be cheaper to buy Jubs with a pair of XTi's and you'll still end up with significantly better sound... I've taken the liberty of quoting some of Mike B's text. Items "1)" and "3)" above say to me, "have you heard the K-402/K-69 two-way Jubilees in a realistic (home-simulating) setting?" You might not be as concerned with amplifiers after this experience.The second quote is very interesting. Having the ability to change crossover settings on the fly through use of active crossovers really highlighted the importance of this often overlooked area.

A Virgil Fox fan! They called him twinkle toes, you know, for obvious reasons. He gave new meaning to the phrase "a religious experience". Chris

Very odd: "I'm ruined for life"...I'm hearing those exact words from others that come to listen for a while.Chris

"The Customer Can Have Any Color He Wants So Long As It's Black". Henry Ford I think that the Model "T" (yes, there were models A-S before the "T" came into being) set the standard for all to follow. Maybe parallel universes exist for loudspeakers. [] Chris

The patio has side walls but no roof. Dimensions for the patio are 27' wide x 75' deep. It is remarkable how good the sound is with no "room issues" to deal with. High ceilings are nice. Sounds like you have the highest one of all...Chris

A more current pic. The things on top are bass traps. I haven't decided how to hang them yet--they work really well in their current locations.