jason str
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Posts posted by jason str
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If i had to choose between the Chorus & Forte i would go with the fully horn loaded La Scala.
Horns rule.
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Go out and listen to as many models as you can, what's good for one may not be right for another.
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Those who pee in bed have rusty bed springs. Dennis Riley
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F-20 half space frequency response:
Here is BFM's advertised 1/2 space measurement:
The F-20 is basically +/- 3dB from 20Hz to 90Hz with a non-sloped (flat) response. I'd argue that 20Hz is 3dB down.
The THT is basically +/- 6dB from 20Hz to 90Hz and has a general falling response. Even with the advertised corner loading you're looking at 12dB down at 20Hz.
If they're the same design, then why does one have a flatter frequency response that digs lower?
If I'm not mistaken those graphs were taken with the older recommended Adire Tempest 15, the F-20 should be loaded with the Dayton RSS390-HF-4.
The frequency response of the THT gets flatter the wider you build it, custom tailor your cabinet width to your room gain needs.
Could you answer the questions i asked in my last post to you about your readings please to determine where the problem lies.
What driver was used for the THT graph ?
Can you list the driver or at least give us the T/S.
Must be out of specs by the looks of things.
How wide was the cabinet ?
Was the driver sealed properly & tested for leaks ?
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So speculation then.
I cannot post a copy of the plans for the THT, if you don't have one i cannot help with this comparison.
If you have a copy just follow the measurements of the horn path.
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Great opportunity to have it your way, Oak is one of my favorites too.
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LiLmike purchased the plans and never built the THT, it was just refolded in an upright position and used 3/4" material
Is this speculation on your part or is this something he said he did (refold Bills design)?
If you have a copy of the plans have a look for yourself.
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You do realize I included a link to more data right? And there you will find a link to the thread where the measurements were taken and the SPL's / voltages were explained....I grow tired of rehashing the same information over and over again.
So what really are you so hostile about? Nowhere have I said you couldn't enjoy a THT. I have only stated that there are better designs available. Do you disagree?
Ricci has put together a huge list of DIY options that have all been measured in the same fashion. Here is a sorting of that list on the performance in the 20-80Hz range:
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=systems&col=7&type=1&sort=desc&mfr=-1
Do you really contend the THT will be at the top of that list? I'm certain it will not.
Based on the other subs compared in the link I provided, I'd be surprised if the THT kept up with the JBL4645c (16th in that list). The SRX718 is a step down from the 4645c and that was one of the better contenders in the comparison measurement I referenced. Here is that summary (also available in the link, but apparently some like to be hand fed):
Orange - SRX718
Blue - T30
Pink - T39
Green - THT
Purple - Growler
What driver was used for the THT graph ?
Can you list the driver or at least give us the T/S.
Must be out of specs by the looks of things.
How wide was the cabinet ?
Was the driver sealed properly & tested for leaks ?
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The F-20 is just a THT knockoff and the unbraced 3/4" plywood would have more distortion than the THT as the lack of bracing contributes to THD, you get what you pay for.
Why would you think It's a THT knock off? If it is indeed a knock off, lilmike did a great job as it's so much easier to build than any of Bills subs. The only unbraced F-20's I've seen were some of the prototypes and test rigs. Virtually everyone braces theirs that I've seen.
LiLmike purchased the plans and never built the THT, it was just refolded in an upright position and used 3/4" material without braces. I noticed it is now recommended you brace the cabinet (witch is a good idea).
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Btw, I see Jason is an "Authorised builder in Chicago" over on the BFM forums...
Just trying to make a honest living, i have bills like everybody else.
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Okay, thanks for the plots and the link. My opinion of the THT hasn't changed from before our conversation here. I believe that design may satisfy many people as a corner-loaded bass bin (but probably not me), but I wouldn't really call it a "subwoofer" (as in "infrasonic bass bin").
If you like the THT, then I'd also recommend a Khorn bass bin, or even perhaps two...
I'm personally not a big fan of the K-horn, i think it sacrifices too much midbass detail IMHO.
The La Scala with a horn sub works so much better.
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No personal vendetta here - I'm an equal opportunity hater (or so my friends say)
Here is the THT in half space:
Distortion at 60Hz:
Or you could read this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1301441-tuba-ht-tht-compromises-trade-offs.html
This distortion graph doesen't make sense, distortion should rise with lower notes as cone travel increases.
Here is a link that makes more sense.
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This has a widget that will help sort for you:
(Is the site down at the moment? It's not working for me right now - maybe a DNS issue or something)...
Mike, it sounds to me like you have a personal vendetta against Bill's designs, this is not the first time i have heard negative remarks on the subject...If you have some factual data on the THT to share please do so but saying the distortion measurements sent you flying to other designs can't be the case.
Every design has compromises, the THT is a big *** horn but everybody who owns one loves them.
I certainly don't want to dilute this future discussion between you and Bentz, but I do have a question and a point on this topic:
Question 1: Do you have independent half-space frequency response measurements on the THT design(s) that has proper scaling of the vertical axis? I'm not referring to the figures on the BFM site - but others that have tested it in half-space? I can't find anything or the path length, unfortunately, and the stuff that I do find shows its FR dropping, starting above 30 Hz (i.e., appearing to be its real "cutoff frequency" unless placed in good corners of a room, like a corner horn). My definition of a subwoofer for home use typically includes something closer to flat response down to 20 Hz (about 14 feet of path length for a horn-loaded subwoofer) in half space instead of 30 Hz, i.e., another ~1/3 octave lower, which apparently makes a THT more of a corner-horn-loaded bass bin than subwoofer (IMHO), based on looking as its BFM-provided FR curve alone.
Point 1: If the controlling measure of merit for hi-fi is "everyone that owns them, loves them", then there are a lot of Bose 901 owners that would argue that they have hi-fi when listening to these units. Good measures for comparing different DIY subwoofer designs might differ from that measure. YMMV.
Chris
There are some independent measurements taken by people who have built the THT on Bill's forum, most have been measured in room. I'm not good at searching around but if you like feel free to do so.
If i recall the THT horn path is right near 14 Ft and tuned to 22Hz.
Bill does recommend wall or corner loading but its not a necessity, the response should go lower and flatter.
Corner loaded bass bin or subwoofer, whats the difference if it gets the job done. Once you get below 20 or 25 Hz distortion gets out of control anyways even on the most pricey subs out there.
Most who use a horn loaded sub also have horn loaded mains, they should know what low distortion sounds like.
Why bring up the 901, thats like comparing apples to turds.
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Great idea but tuned too low to be a good use as a car sub.
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Lots of great comments and ideas posted so far.
Let me just say i would never call the piggies for loud music no matter the volume or time as i am a music lover, although some types of music I'm not fond of and bad sound just speaks for itself.
Many times in the past i had nasty notes on my door (probably didnt hear em banging on my door), taped to my car windows and of course cops have showed up, i feel if a neighbor has a problem with another they should talk things over before getting the police involved.
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There are better horn sub options if you haven't already decided on the Fitzmaurice stuff...
Do tell. Number them in order of preference too.
This has a widget that will help sort for you:
(Is the site down at the moment? It's not working for me right now - maybe a DNS issue or something)
The Othorn is hands down the best performance per cubic foot, and will offer a very solid 25Hz corner. Tapped horns don't seem to benefit from room gain in the same way so don't be too hopeful about extending the LF performance too much.
If you really want to go lower, then the Gjallarhorn is a good option - but you're going to give up some performance in the top octave of the subwoofer (which I think is more important for music).
I've not had a chance to hear anything super similar to the F20 for myself, but its measurements look good and it gets away with a much cheaper driver (of course at the expense of SPL and distortion).
The DTS-10 is another good one, but be prepared to xover at a much lower frequency...Apparently they offer the kits around the November/December timeframe each year?
Has anyone ever shot out the THT against any of the other more potent designs out there? The THD measurements are what sent me flying to other designs. I honestly would go with a standard vented cabinet first...
Of course at the end of the day the room modes are what dominate and that Dual Zoned Bass Array approach has gotta be the best and most elegant solution out there. I've always wanted to implement it with a bifurcated tapped horn so you can use fewer drivers for the same number of apparent acoustic sources required by the approach....
Mike, it sounds to me like you have a personal vendetta against Bill's designs, this is not the first time i have heard negative remarks on the subject.
Comparing the THT to your other choices is just slightly unfair as just the driver alone is 3-6 times the price of the Dayton recommended for the THT not to mention the cost of higher priced materials you would need to build these units.
If you have some factual data on the THT to share please do so but saying the distortion measurements sent you flying to other designs can't be the case.
If you never heard something similar to the F-20 then you never heard the THT and if you never heard the THT there's no way you spent any time testing it to comment on distortion.
The F-20 is just a THT knockoff and the unbraced 3/4" plywood would have more distortion than the THT as the lack of bracing contributes to THD, you get what you pay for.
Every design has compromises, the THT is a big *** horn but everybody who owns one loves them.
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I see, your best bet is to check ebay for parts i guess, maybe another forum member could offer you the parts you need.
Good luck with your search.
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My neighbors Blows wave radio is making me nuts, he brings it outside for yard music. The overemphasized midbass is so sloppy and annoying i just want to throw it on the ground and stomp it dead.
Am i being overdramatic or does this kind of sound bother others ears also ?
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What are you trying to do with the LED ?
Maybe i can give you some help, they are available at many places if its just the LED you're interested in.
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We gave up on Comcast years ago, if you want to disconnect your service don't pay your bill. That will get their attention.
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How does this outlet "sound"? I like my outlets not to make any "sound".
The only bad sound i ever heard from an outlet was from a poor contact.
Pure BS, how do these people sleep at night.
If you want to spend extra on a good outlet just buy the hospital grade models.
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Why a sub 10/12 model ?
There are so many better choices out there.
Never had any problems with mine either but sold it because anything over 45-50 Hz was sloppy sounding.
I'm honestly just wanting it for certain components and a couple DIY projects I have in mind. And the components I want are from those particular models. Yes I know there are better subs.
Klipsch may still offer the parts you need, give them a call. Always very kind and helpfull support too.
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Why a sub 10/12 model ?
There are so many better choices out there.
Never had any problems with mine either but sold it because anything over 45-50 Hz was sloppy sounding.
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The THT has withstood the toughest test of all. The test of TIME. Even though it's harder to build, the way it's structured allow one to use thinner, less expensive plywood, so it's easier to move without calling an ambulance afterwards like most of the others out there. My Danleys are almost 300 pounds each. and I moved them by myself. Trying to quit that. Thank goodness I own a dolly.
Lifting not only sucks it can be hazardous, i dam near busted a nut lifting my full turbo 400 tranny with converter out of my 73 delta 88 to get it to the trans rebuilder for racing usage, never again will i strain myself, its just easier to find some help.
Why horn-loaded loudspeakers are subject to design tradeoffs
in Technical/Restorations
Posted
The KPT-1802 is ported, no passive.
It is huge though for sure.